Kuen Kuit

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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1

Greetings,

Does your WC training follow and adhere to the principles and concepts as described in the Kuen Kuit? I want to know if today’s practitioners utilize or deviate from it.

Bong Baat Ting Lao
Dik Yaat Yee Dong
Jong Sum Yim Hong
Kuen Yao Sum Faat (Sao Yao Sum Faat)
Lien Siu Dai Da
Loi Lao Hoi Sung
Lut Sao Jik Jong (Fung Lut Jik Jong)
Sien Faat Jai Yan
Yan Si Yee Gong
Yao Ying Da Ying
Mo Ying Da Yieng
Yao Yieng Juk Lao
Mo Yieng Po Jung
Yee Sao Wai Gong
Yee Gong Wai Sao

You can find the translation and definition at
www.wingchunkuen.com

2

I have not visited Rene’s site recently-will do again sometime:
As I have mentioned before- I am fascinated by the kuen kuit and there are different collections of them.There are many more than you list.
Some of the ones you list are one liners others are listed on two lines but they are part of the same saying though for poetry
2 lines can give you the rhythm..An example below-

Yao Ying Da Ying
Mo Ying Da Yieng

can be written horizontally witha break or
vertically in two balanced columns depending on the option chosen for calligraphy and poetry..

In any case:

yau ying da ying mo ying da yieng

strike any presented posture if its there otherwise strike
where you see motion

That one directly comes from wing chun specific strategy.
Then you have ones(I dont have my notes here) which are
from old sources such as Sun Tzu— something like—

You start first but I arrive earlier.

Then there is the very common wing chun one—

retain what is coming in & send off what is retreating
rush in upon loss of hand contact

We have discussed that one just recently.

Another wing chun specific one about the kwan-

the six and a half point kwan does not make more than one sound

Augustine Fong’s elaborate collection in chinese calligraphy and in English are in the back of his now out of print book number 7
(Wing chun theories and concepts)-
which has been plagiarized by someone else. That book originally was prepared in English the late 70s when i still lived in Tucson..
the book has disappeared in the market and some folks who are occasionally critical- still quote from it.
But the poetry has to be internally and properly understood and interpreted. They are not mechanical formulae. Many CMA sayings had meaning for the insider and disguised its meaning for the outsider. specially true for some southern styles- and their unique histories.

joy chaudhuri

3

a kuen kuit: fear vs. greed

One of the Kuen Kuits that my Sifu shared with us is (in Mandarin):

pa da zhong gui da
(fear, hit, in the end, come back, hit)

tan da zhong bei da
(greed, hit, in the end, get, hit)

My understanding of this saying is "if you are afraid to get hit, you will end up getting hit; if you are too eager to hit, you will end up getting hit).

Last time I met with Sifu Ken Chung, he also talked about this, that greed and fear get in the way of training, and it best to leave this behind.

Is this a saying common to Wing Chun (has anyone else heard of it)? Or is it just something my Sifu came up with?

4

In every day’s language it could mean: Keep your head clear and let your Kung Fu do the talking!:wink:

5

Not an uncommon kuen kuit by any means. We dont use ken’s phrasing of greedy but the same intent is there.

Basically two interrelated sayings:

Strike when you should. Do not strike when you shouldnt.

Do not be too eager to strike. Do not be afraid to strike. Being afraid of getting hit- will finally be hit.

Joy Chaudhuri

6

Yes, this is a pretty common saying in HK YMWC.
But when Ken says “but tam but wai”, he has a very specific structural alignment meaning, quite different from the generic “you’ll get hit if you are greedy or afraid”.

7

aelward,

There are thousands of Hoa Kuit (some call them Kuen Kuit). If you really need to know where your Sifu got them, you’ll have to go back to your Sifu and ask him more about those two.

However, this is the one Ving Tsun Hoa Kuit (Ving Tsun Kuen Kuit) which, I believe, is the jist what your sifu told you. This is a single poem, though sometimes you’ll find its verses stripped from their context. (NOTE: This is Cantonese - the language of Ving Tsun - not Mandarin):

Ying Dar, Chak Dar
Pat Ying Dar, Pat Ho Dar
Mo Keung Dar, Mat Luen Dar

Translations to English could be as follows:

Have the line? Take the line.
Don’t have the line? Don’t take the line.
No greedy hits? No confusion who hit.

or:

When you should hit, hit
When you shouldn’t, don’t
Don’t when you can’t
Don’t when you mustn’t

Anyone else want to take a gander at the translation? Attached is a rubbing of one side of the stone.

8

A wise young fella once said

Post when you should post
Do not post when you should not post
If you post - always hit the spell check
Rolling hands can sometimes be trolling hands

:stuck_out_tongue:

9

Similar

From a submission grappling coach:

“Take the gift, don’t seek the bounty”

From a boxing coach:

“Christmas: better to give than to receive”

10

Its confidence in your technique without ego. Its about not bull$hitting yourself about whats happening.

11

'when your opponent moves in, you move in,
when your opponent moves out, you move in,
when your opponent stands still, you move in!":wink:

12

This one I made up:

“It don’t mean a thing if it ain’t got that jing”.

13

Have the line? Take the line.
Don’t have the line? Take the line.
No greedy hits? Take the line.

14

Kuen Kuit

Just wondering if people would be interested in sharing some of there family’s Kuen Kuit and there interpretation of what they think they mean.I think it is amazing how a few Chinese characters can relay such a deep meaning.

15

bglenn

you might check the following site:
http://www.afn.org/~afn59160/kuit.htm

Some are common to other wck, some are common to TCMA,
and some are line specific.
The site is maintained by Jordan Misner who does wing chun
and teaches it. The school also teaches hung gar but not by Misner.

16

Yuanfen once again drops the bonsai on correctness. You may also want to check out http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/idioms/index.shtml for a few I’ve begun posting.

RR

17

Mr. Ritchie,

I really like your presentation with both the original Chinese, as well as the translation. I don’t suppose there might be any Chinese sources for Mr. Misner’s wonderful pages on kuen kuit too?

18

sing fu- there are. Mr. Misner or his sifu Rob Lopez might be able to help. Unfortunately, my tech knowledge is so poor that despite my prayers and flowers my pc image repro machine just stares at me. And one of my students who is good at these things wisely is not on net lists. Most of my students, brothers and sisters arent.

19

Yuanfen,

Thank you! If these are something Mr. Misner might be able to share with someone who isn’t a student, I would be grateful - I’ll try writing to him.

I also have some poem from a departed relatives notes, including one which says ‘the fist is the bullet, chi is the gun powder’ - but not sure where these come from. It’s a shame I didn’t learn more while he was still around!

Are these poems recited during training, or taught aurally privately, or passed on in a book? As I mentioned, the only ones I have personally seen are a number in notes.

Any directions would be very much appreciated:)

20

Unfortunately, English translations don’t accurately convey the utility and
pithiness of Cantonese—there just aren’t good counterparts in each
language.

The Cantonese is metaphorical; the English simply doesn’t correspond to the
mindset of the Chinese.

Kuen Kuit for martial arts are supposed to be short and sweet idioms that
when the Sifu yells at the student, it brings the student immediately to
that mental state, in addition to the physical attributes of how to execute
that technique.

The following are some Kuen Kuit compiled by one of my Chinese sidai.
Most of the translations are accurate in meaning, despite the poetic
elegance of “short and sweet” being lost in the translation. He has matched
a few of the popular ones with their more popular American counterparts for
your amusement.

Loi Lao Hoi Sung, Lut Sao Jik Jong
Direct translation: Stay with what comes. Send off what goes. Detain what
arrives. Escort what is removed.

“When the opponent expands, I contract;
When the opponent contracts, I expand;
When there is an opportunity, I do not hit;
It hits all by itself.” — Bruce Lee, Enter the Dragon.

Lien Siu Dai Da
Direct translation: Join cancelling to bring hitting.

“Jeet Kune Do. The way of the Intercepting Fist.” — Bruce Lee

Dar Sou Jik Siu Sao
Direction translation: The hand that hits also blocks

“A good offense is your best defense.” — Vince Lombardi

Hui Yu Min, Chuk Yu Tik
Direction translation: Feels like Cotton. Hits like Iron

“Float like a butterfly. Sting like a Bee” — Ali

Chew Min Joi Ying
Direction Translation: Search and Follow the center, Chase the shadow

“In Ya Face, Baby !!!”