Kids and uniforms

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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[QUOTE=TenTigers;746962]the OTHER pic. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Of course. The point is that he is a MODERN teacher. When I say traditionally I’m not talking the past 100 years after the modernization of China.

If you want to get on like that, tradition being so short, then why not wear gym clothes like Jet Li used to when he was training?

There was this bad T.V. movie a while back where they had some guy getting his black belt in Kenpo and the instructor said it was an ‘ancient ceremony’ and important, and bowed and all of that, and said that traditionally when a Kenpo guy gets his black belt it means the boy has turned into a man.

This, in American Kenpo, which is a style Ed Parker put together out of stuff he learned from people who did street fighting in Hawaii, Mitose and Chow and stuff. No belts, no traditions, nothing like that. It’s all B.S.

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basically, it’s only since MA was taught openly to the public that uniforms started, which is why I point to men like Lam Sai-Wing, and Lau Fat-Mang, who were probably one of the first recognized “commercial” teachers.
I run a TCMA gwoon, but my teacher teaches me in his home, in his friend’s abandoned building, in the park, whatever. No uniforms. But..he also doesn’t teach openly. If he did, well, then there would probably be uniforms.
-actually, we do have an embroidered polo shirt, but we only wear it on “Special occaisions” like those TCMA polo matches you see advertized…um, no.

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[QUOTE=TenTigers;746993]basically, it’s only since MA was taught openly to the public that uniforms started, which is why I point to men like Lam Sai-Wing, and Lau Fat-Mang, who were probably one of the first recognized “commercial” teachers.
I run a TCMA gwoon, but my teacher teaches me in his home, in his friend’s abandoned building, in the park, whatever. No uniforms. But..he also doesn’t teach openly. If he did, well, then there would probably be uniforms.
-actually, we do have an embroidered polo shirt, but we only wear it on “Special occaisions” like those TCMA polo matches you see advertized…um, no.[/QUOTE]

So basically what you’re saying is in large commercial schools with uniforms, they wear uniforms.

I mean, plenty of wushu places trained in gym clothes until they started wearing taiji pyjamas recently.

Bottom line is if you want to make it a ‘tradition’ that’s up to you, but it’s your made up ‘tradition’.

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So basically what you’re saying is in large commercial schools with uniforms, they wear uniforms.

-yep

I mean, plenty of wushu places trained in gym clothes until they started wearing taiji pyjamas recently.

-they still train in gym clothes-the silks are reserved for performance.

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http://youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

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[QUOTE=TenTigers;747065]http://youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM[/QUOTE]

It’s the department of redundancy department.

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Uniforms and the like are not a modern thing.

Also, it is within the human condition that in order to lead, one has to understand what it is to follow.

Putting the cart before the horse will often rile the horse and you don’t get far at all. there is nothing wrong with putting down the self in exchange for lessons in anything.

Uniforms as a distinction of belonging to community extend out and far beyond just martial arts school and there is value in a lesson in humility through deconstruction of ego.

Soldiers wear them, firemen, police etc.

A sense of identity is often very badly needed by people, especially youth who try to identify with something, or someone or anyone.

There is more value in having a standard and a tradition than not. Not to mention there is often a practical aspect to wearing uniforms or outward identification.

a small for instance, cable knit sweaters. :stuck_out_tongue: these were woven differently from village to village and when fishermen drowned and were washed up on shore, they could be identified by the weave of the sweater.

I suppose one could view it as a bad thing if they chose to do so, but generally this is an act of iconoclasm if not outright beligerance for the sake of it. Which will often get you cast out of community and it takes some time of longing for friendship or companionship before people can finely make the decision to oput down their foolish pride and larger tahn life ideas of who they really are in order to find peace.

So, asking that a uniform be worn and be kept clean is not a big deal and not a big expectation. And to make the outward demonstration of some chore for not adhering is not a lot to expect either.

We all have to play by rules in one way or another or in some way we won’t be accepted. That’s how it works. That’s how it’s always worked and that is likely to be how it will always work.

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wow, there’s the old KL :wink:

I’m not going to bother keeping up with this thread past this post…neil and water quan can certainly have their opinion as I can have mine and others theirs.

1 verbal warning and push ups, 2 talk with parents and push ups, 3 strikes send them home.

ETA: I did have one student where the mother was a single mom trying to make ends meet. His uniform was so old they started to fray. So he stopped wearing them. I talked with the mom and found out they were short on cash. So it was either frayed uniform or no uniform. I gave the kid an early B-Day gift.

i’ve given uniforms and equipment to students in the very same manner…xmas or birthday…hell, the 3 kids in question got gear bags last xmas in an effort to help them remember their stuff…don’t see the gear bags anymore…

for everyone who gave constructive advice and support, THANKS!

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I think they may be protesting just a little to much, but they certainly are entitled to their views.

It’s all good.

p.s “the old kl”? yin and yang has always been my flow. :stuck_out_tongue: I get riled too.

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i was doing some searching the other week and ran across some old KL posts that were more like the one above

:slight_smile: there was a shift when you stopped moderating :slight_smile:

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well, i didn’t have to be moderate anymore. :stuck_out_tongue:

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[QUOTE=Oso;746766]Good post, Xia.

But, that begs the question: What do kid really need a martial art for?

To fight? Fighting is bad, right?

Self Defense?

Against another kid?

That’s ‘fighting’ as far as parents and schools are concerned; ‘bad’ again.

Against an adult?

Not going to happen.

Few children (<12) are ever going to beat an adult intent on harming them.

Self defense has nothing to do with physically defending oneself, that’s ‘fighting’. yes, yes, one assumes that SD is going to be taught in a martial arts school…but, that’s still another thread.

Sport? Ok, that one i’ll buy…I even like it. My own personal goal is to provide a place for children who don’t fit into the mold of the ‘Big 3’ sports to learn a physical skill that can make them feel good about themselves…and compete if they wish to.[/QUOTE]
I know that in today’s politically correct school system kids can get in trouble for defending themselves. But do you really agree with it? If a kid is attacked by another what is he supposed to do? It would seem that political correctness would dictate that he gets beaten up. I just don’t buy that. Why shouldn’t a kid have the right to defend himself? Therefore, I say kids should be taught martial arts just as they have been for years. I guess you can teach and encourage “nicer” techniques to use when defending against other kids and explain to them the danger of using other stuff. Political correctness aside, there are still some things in martial arts that kids can’t do without hurting themselves. I think a good kids program serves three purposes. 1) Builds a martial arts foundation. 2) Provides fitness. 3) Fosters a love for martial arts.

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[QUOTE=The Xia;747109]I know that in today’s politically correct school system kids can get in trouble for defending themselves. But do you really agree with it?

Hell No. not at all. the last thing people would acuse me of is political correctness.

If a kid is attacked by another what is he supposed to do?

I’ve got a kid who is getting picked on at school. He’s got enough skills to probably pop back succesfully. His mom has come to me and I’ve basically told her that I could help him get better at fighting if what she wants him to do is fight back. But, I told her it would also probably lead to a succession of fights as retalitation sets in and in todays society, he would get ganged up on and the crap kicked out of him. Otherwise, it’s just a sad fact that small kids are going to get picked on buy big kids.

It would seem that political correctness would dictate that he gets beaten up. I just don’t buy that. Why shouldn’t a kid have the right to defend himself?

They should, just as any other citizen of this country. But, they don’t have that right within the confines of any school system I’ve ever experienced. Most administrators have the policy that anyone fighting is guilty. And, other than developing some sort of court system within the school system…there will probably not be any other way. The exception being, I hope, when a person in charge witnesses a specific incident.

Therefore, I say kids should be taught martial arts just as they have been for years. I guess you can teach and encourage “nicer” techniques to use when defending against other kids and explain to them the danger of using other stuff.

A nice thought…but, and this is a stretch of an analogy, ‘don’t pull the trigger unless you mean to kill’. (It’s an analogy!!!) The same arguments against ‘twiddly finger’ kung fu techniques that are too fancy to pull off when your dander is up (and motor control is down) is why, if I were teaching a kid to really fight, I would teach them the same things I teach my adults to fight with in full contact venues. ‘kick the leg, punch the head’ at it’s simplest.

Political correctness aside, there are still some things in martial arts that kids can’t do without hurting themselves. I think a good kids program serves three purposes. 1) Builds a martial arts foundations. 2) Provides fitness. 3) Fosters a love for martial arts.[/QUOTE]

totally agree with the last.

I think we’re on the same page. My initial response was semi-devil’s advocate…as in, I’m torn between my personal views and the reality of the situation of a kid being bullied.

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[QUOTE=David Jamieson;747107]well, i didn’t have to be moderate anymore. :p[/QUOTE]

i know…not a critique…just an observation. :slight_smile:

I actually had a visualization once after reading a ‘DJ’ post of you pulling a kabuki style mask off and screaming ‘HAAA!!! Beyotches!!! I don’t have to be nice anymore. mwuhahahahaha…’ :stuck_out_tongue:

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[QUOTE=Oso;747114]I think we’re on the same page. My initial response was semi-devil’s advocate…as in, I’m torn between my personal views and the reality of the situation of a kid being bullied.[/QUOTE]
This seems to be quite a pickle you have yourself in. You mentioned that one of your students gets picked on but if he pops his attacker back he might get ganged up on. That may happen. But it also might not. This next notion might sound clich but it’s more often then not true from situations Ive witnessed. Bullies are cowards. The reason why they pick on those that are smaller then they is because they perceive the smaller size as weakness. If they feel that there’s a chance they can get their ass kicked, they won’t pick on someone. In most instances I have seen, if a bully gets knocked on his ass, he backs down and moves onto different prey. But you can’t be sure, and as you said, the bully might come back with friends. But I have not seen that kind of thing personally.
I also know about school rules dealing with fighting. You and I likely feel the same way about them. Basically, that theyre a load of B.S.. From what I have seen, those rules go from elementary to high school, which makes it worse because as kids get older fights tend to get more dangerous. I say if someone attacks you, in school or anywhere else, defend yourself. If you get in trouble later, it’s best to remember that detention and suspension are better then hospital visits or worse. But even at an elementary school level, it’s plain old stupid to expect a kid to lie down and take it. A kid popping a bully and ending a fight saves himself from pain, humiliation, and possible injury (and maybe continued bullying as well). Is the punishment that the school doles out worse then the things he is saving himself from? I doubt it. Besides, parents can always challenge the school. I think that one of the worst things parents can do (and often do) when dealing with the school system is to just lay down and let them walk all over their kids.
It’s still a tough position you are in and I don’t envy it. I wish you good luck and hope things turn out for the best with this.

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it’s a bit worse than just bullying…not going to get in to it here for privacy reasons but it’s not a great situation at all.

thanks.

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[QUOTE=Oso;747216]it’s a bit worse than just bullying…not going to get in to it here for privacy reasons but it’s not a great situation at all.

thanks.[/QUOTE]

Bullying is a big pain. Fighting doesn’t help much.

My recommendation for the kid getting bullied is to use a prison mentality and make friends with some bigger kids … if he’s out there alone he’s fair game for anybody.

When I was a kid, I got bullied a lot. Then, when I got into high school and after I started taking MA it stopped. I always thought it was because I took MA.

But NO … I talked to some people years later and what happened is that I started hanging out with a friend from school, and he had a bunch of older brothers, and I started hanging out with them.

Well one night at dinner they asked why I got into trouble at school and I said well I had a busted jaw from a fight. Well that was the last fight because they had a ‘talk’ with the kids who were picking on me. Never told me though until 15 years later.

Kindof a tragic story because one of the brothers died later from a drunk driver.

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[QUOTE=David Jamieson;747088] Uniforms and the like are not a modern thing.

Also, it is within the human condition that in order to lead, one has to understand what it is to follow.
[/QUOTE]

Well, if you want to be a leader, I don’t say that’s wrong - just a choice, but I don’t see what it has to do with martial arts, or why it helps in learning martial arts.

Besides, what you said is just a platitude… I’m not sure Alexander the Great or Churchill were ever comfortable as followers. In fact, the real truth is the “ego” is a huge, huge help to those who need to lead. Uniforms - well, I suppose they help keep people herded. And the shepherd must have his crook.

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;747088]

Putting the cart before the horse will often rile the horse and you don’t get far at all. there is nothing wrong with putting down the self in exchange for lessons in anything.
[/QUOTE]

Why would putting people down help them learn? Actually, I say there’s a lot wrong with it.

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;747088]
Uniforms as a distinction of belonging to community extend out and far beyond just martial arts school and there is value in a lesson in humility through deconstruction of ego.
[/QUOTE]

Why do you feel the need to destroy everyone’s ego? You could do that by feeding people LSD untilt hey go mad. Buddhist ideas on non-existence of self are to do with awareness of the artifical construction of self-sense via language and meaning - nothign to do with eliminating people’s self worth, or any of this other stuff you are spouting. The stuff you are talking about is the surest way to make people focus on their ego - attack the ego like you say and it will totally focus on its self, totally eliminating the slightest possibility of understanding the teachings of the Buddha.

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;747088]
Soldiers wear them, firemen, police etc.
[/QUOTE]

Why would that mean that it is necessary for kung fu students to wear them? Any more than if someone went for a guitar lessont hey would need to put on a special costume - maybe like Garth from Wayne’s World or something??? In fact, it is amazing how anyone learns anything when they are not in a uniform, given your logic!

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;747088]
A sense of identity is often very badly needed by people, especially youth who try to identify with something, or someone or anyone.
[/QUOTE]

Well, if the best you can do is to make them identify with clothes, then I suppose at least you are trying. At one time, that lack was filled by wholesome martial arts practice - a sense of personal achievement via effort and rewarding practice. At one time…

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;747088]
There is more value in having a standard and a tradition than not.
[/QUOTE]

Where is that proven? Tradtion based groups are often backward looking. COnsider the difference between dead martial arts systems - 99.9 per cent of them -where all learnign and growth has ended - and the liive systems, where each person embarks on a journey to explore their own abilities freely. Dead systems, dead ways…

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;747088]
Not to mention there is often a practical aspect to wearing uniforms or outward identification.
[/QUOTE]

Well, for Judo I can see the point. For kung fu people, if you have time to wash and dry your uniform you’re not trainign enough! Ha ha…

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;747088]
a small for instance, cable knit sweaters. :stuck_out_tongue: these were woven differently from village to village and when fishermen drowned and were washed up on shore, they could be identified by the weave of the sweater.
[/QUOTE]

Not a terribly likely risk for the average kung fu student, I shouldn’t think.

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[QUOTE=David Jamieson;747088] I. Which will often get you cast out of community and it takes some time of longing for friendship or companionship before people can finely make the decision to oput down their foolish pride and larger tahn life ideas of who they really are in order to find peace.
[/QUOTE]

If that were your aim, you would be helping people come to terms with who they are, not attackign who they are, and seeking to eliminate it.

Pride is not foolish - it is very noble in many cases.

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;747088]
So, asking that a uniform be worn and be kept clean is not a big deal and not a big expectation. And to make the outward demonstration of some chore for not adhering is not a lot to expect either.
[/QUOTE]

Why should people have to follow petty rules just to learn some kung fu?

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;747088]
We all have to play by rules in one way or another or in some way we won’t be accepted. That’s how it works. That’s how it’s always worked and that is likely to be how it will always work. [/QUOTE]

Unless people question it.

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your opinions are completely valid and you are 100% entitled to them. I differ in my views on the subject.