Here’s a Wing Chun kicking article I (& helped by others) wrote for a provincial Martial Arts publication that came out recently, http://www.kickstartmag.ca/online_magazine/ . Goto page 22 on the menu. Thought some of you might like to read it..
James
I really DID NOT like what I read. In my opinion, induces to a misunderstanding.
Following a very important concept in Wing Chun, Chiu Ying, the major kick in Wing Chun is the “Jing Gurk” (Front Kick)
We should always try to fight “Front On Facing”.
Best Regards
Thanks for sharing, James.
Not really understanding whay your trying to say Simply_easy? The article did state that the front kick is the most effective and simplest to use, with your guard up facing the opponent? But at times the side and round will have to be used depending if your opponent is in your frontal range or outside of that range. We like our students to be aware of all the kicks available to them in the Martial Arts, hook, cresent, low to high kicks, etc..but still the main kicks are the front, side and round in the Wing Chun I teach.
James
I am just making a personal comment, you do not have to agree with it. (DO NOT GET MAD)
You mention “should use a side stance, feet side by side…instead a front stance”, plus “that” picture, that looks more like a taewkondo or karate kick, but Wing Chun…??? No way!!
I know you are going to say that in a fight you can do whatever you want, or you can teach the way you want. That IS absolutely RIGHT!
There is 8 families of kicks in Wing Chun, plus 4 families of knees, (plenty of leg maneuvers in Wing Chun), but when we use those, we never lose the chance of using our arms.
We should always kick with a upright trunk, so we can use simultaneously our hands. I am not talking bad about other systems, but I am trying to say that Wing Chun has its proper way to do leg attacks. Wing Chun uses the enemy’s stance for your own stability. “3 leg stance” concept.
Sincerely
Good for you James, I agree.
Hey, Simple_easy,
Not getting mad, lol, just didn’t understand your question. 
The picture is for dramatic effect but the ability to do the kick is the essence. If you cannot kick high then you have less options. Not all that come into the Wing Chun will want to kick high or can but it is nice to have that option. Personally, if my opponent was 5’ tall, and me being 6’1" I could easily kick him in the head and would not consider that a “High” kick at all. But if my opponent was 6’5" then to kick him in the head would be high, very high and not recommended. So you see, it is all relative to the circumstances.
In the kwoon I belong to, we like to teach the students all the basic Martial Arts kicks, not just for their own benefit and Wing Chun useage but to also be able to attack their partners correctly. How is one supposed to be able to defend TKD, Muay Thai, or any other kicking art type kicks if you never face them in class? So we teach our students how to kick like them, how to punch like them (boxers, Karate, etc.), so that they understand their technique and the how’s and why’s of it all. All of this helps us in Wing Chun to better be able to defend ourselves against them.
The side stance is the preferred stance that we use outside of the kicking range, or Non-contact stage of combat. We can still use all the kicks described in the article from whatever stance we are in. The article was a generalized type article and due to space restrictions could not get into much detail. I have contacted Black Belt Magazine and they have accepted a more detailed article on our Wing Chun kicks that will be published sometime in the near future.
James
Cooments on James’s post in brackets.
James says:Hey, Simple_easy,
Not getting mad, lol, just didn’t understand your question.
((I dont need to speak for him. But simple-easy is honest and civil. Speaks and writes English fine. But he is in Brazil and in net communications without hearing tones or body language or essay writing–nuances can vary))
The picture is for dramatic effect but the ability to do the kick is the essence.
((Understood- for mags- they like dramatic pics. and ina short article one cannot explain much. The kicker(you?) looks limber but IMO it’s really nota wc kick. But it is the only pic that I saw and again not much discussion of the nature of a wc front kick.I am sure there are quite different points of view involved rather than any personalism))
If you cannot kick high then you have less options.
((Not necessarily- depends on the details- mechanics and dynamics))
Personally, if my opponent was 5’ tall, and me being 6’1" I could easily kick him in the head and would not consider that a “High” kick at all.
((Possibly- but possible costs involved if the 5 footer is competent and experienced
your center could be open))
So we teach our students how to kick like them, how to punch like them (boxers, Karate, etc.), so that they understand their technique and the how’s and why’s of it all.
((Differences in POV. Imitating a style and really facinga stylist are different things.
Also- there is a danger in stereotyping a stylist. Even in boxing they styles makes fights— lots of variations in most styles. I see no problem in working out from time to time witha real boxer or grappler for variety))
The side stance is the preferred stance that we use outside of the kicking range,
((Completely different points of view involved here between some TWC types and some “modified”(ugh) types.))
Joy
Sounds to me like you’re under Fong’s system. He is one of the few that has catagorized and said to have incorperated the “8 kicks” and “4 knees” and “5 elbows”…etc. Personally, I like his methods…however to say that “wing chun has this or that” is an absolute statement which cannot be substantiated. Maybe the correct way to say that is “the wing chun method I use has…”. Some wing chun only uses pai jang, or gwai jang (as opposed to the five) and kicks…well most systems that I’ve studied or read about only have 2, aside from the bong gurk and leg sweeps (soo gurk?). Sooo does wing chun really have 8 kicks? Or did someone add them to his curriculum? Did Yip Man teach 8 kicks and 5 elbows and 4 knees? (Rhetorical question simply for one to ponder…)
And to Sihing…have you ever known the crescent kick to actually work against a skilled opponent? OR at all really? That’s one of those kicks that I’ve personally never found to be all that effective as far as power generation, only to slap the hands or something (the ever popular kicking of the gun or knife out of the assailants hand…lol).
“And to Sihing…have you ever known the crescent kick to actually work against a skilled opponent? OR at all really? That’s one of those kicks that I’ve personally never found to be all that effective as far as power generation, only to slap the hands or something (the ever popular kicking of the gun or knife out of the assailants hand…lol).”
THIS IS a good point, Van…Not a high percentage kick at all - too circular - and leaves too much of the kicker’s body open for a counter.
Which brings me to Joy’s point about a 6’1" guy kicking at the head of a 5’ guy…the kicker is open to being unbalanced and countered because he’s made it easy for the 5’ guy to grab his kicking leg - while simultaneously opening himself to a groin-shot counter.
The argument that high kicking gives more options to work with is FAULTY logic.
Some “options” are so low percentage and inherently flawed that they’re best left out of the picture altogether.
High kicks are a huge and unjustifiable gamble…doubly so for high circular ones like crescent kicks.
FREQUENT HARD CONTACT SPARRING AGAINST SKILLED OPPONENTS would go a long way toward ending such low percentage thinking.
Come on Victor, can’t you do better than this to refute every thing I said in the article, lol. So I guess the game now is to disagree and attack everything I post on this forum, and become ANTI-JAMES, LOL… Please feel free to continue as you are digging your own hole at this point in the game…
Van, Victor,
Personally I never have and would not recommend using the cresent kick, unless to the armpit, upper lat area when offline, but if you read my post carefully you never know when you might need it and I’d rather know how to use it, and high kicks as well, and not, rather than not know how to use it and require it’s use. If one can kick high effectively, this is a good thing as it is a much harder task and requires more physical effort, therefore making lower kicks that much better and easier. Not all are willing or able to kick high and it is not a requirement for effective fighting in the WC systems. And from the footage I have seen of recent Muay Thai matches it is not that UNEFFECTIVE, as it looked like to me high kicks were used often with proper set up and strategy. And also we use it to train against the high kickers of the world, so to do that the students must know how to perform the movements proficiently. As for high kicks and me being 6’1" and kicking the 5’ guy in the head and getting caught by it, well lets just say that you better be dam good at reading my kicks and grabbing it while at the same time defending your head or upper body, because it will be there and gone before you know it at that kicking height, but believe what you must if it makes you feel good. You think I won’t use a preliminary movement first to set up the kick? I’ve hit guys 6’+ with a low/high round kick combo in class quite frequently and I don’t practice it that much nowadays. It’s common knowledge that people have problems identifying and following fast low/high combinations with either hands or feet. The real question is not how effective it is but if you the practitioner can pull it off. I wouldn’t recommend it to most students as the flexibility and foot speed is not there with most WC practitioners, its just something I worked on personally in my individual training (I always admired that combo from the Return of The Dragon Bruce Lee flick when he did it against Bob Wall near the end).
James
I personally have no problems with kicking high, the legs are stronger weapons then the hands and can be used very effectively in fights, high or low. The key is knowing when and where to use them. Since I do practice MT as well, I’ve found the thai round kick to be a very effective weapon, as well as the low-mid side kick, and low to mid front kicks. Anything else, to me, seems like a waste however. I wouldnt gamble with a crescent since it leaves me too open and doesn’t do any damage at all. ( I have yet to meet someone that could use a crescent effectively - and this includes my time in Korea with the “real” TKD people). I will stick with the front, side, and round kicks, (and I guess the “back” kick as well) for effectiveness. To me…that’s really all one needs for the offensive kicks (not including things like bong gurk, shin checks, standing sweeps, etc…)
I understand where you’re coming from on the kicking issue James…just that particular kick I find problems with.
“James says: The picture is for dramatic effect but the ability to do the kick is the essence.”
If I am correct the title of the article was “Wing Chun Kicks”, then I suppose at least pictures of Wing Chun kicks. (Common Sense?)
Is not a matter of height of the opponent either 5’ , 6’, or…, but application of the system principles. Are you saying to me that you would take your chance, kicking with a very skilled “short” fighter, let’s imagine just for example, deceased Wong Shun Leung? He was short. Or let’s imagine SiJo Yip Man? Frankly, I do not think that would be a good idea.
In the lineage that I came from, we play “OUR GAME” which is “WING CHUN”. If you want play the others people game, or you change your system, or you will not be as good as them using their technique…We do not stand a chance if you want to do boxing against boxers, or using Jiu Jitsu against Jiu Jitsu experts. You must TRUST YOUR SYSTEM AND YOUR TEACHER or you must find one that you trust. That is so important to find competent instruction, speacially speaking of Wing Chun, that is so hard…(At least for me, had to go through a lot of JUNK)
Just for fun, some saying about “Leg Use” in Wing Chun.:
“Kick under your nose” (The kick follow the direction that our nose points to)
“Invisible Kick” (The enemy can not see the kick, since he is “busy” with our hands)
“Kicks only when necessary, that is RIGHT TIMING” (We should use a kick WHEN THE OPPORTUNITY APPEARS, and NOT WHEN WE WANT)
and there are many more sayings…
best regards
First: Wing Chun is a complete system of fighting. Uses your whole body to fight. Would not be a system if was so limited with only “two leg maneuvers”…
and
Second: That’s the reason we must practice for long time under competent guidance, so we are sure what we are talking about. Not guessing.
While I agree that to deal effectively with some specific thing, it helps a great deal to have seen it before, it doesn’t follow that one needs to do that specific thing ourselves in our own training. For example, I don’t need to train thai kicks or spinning heel kicks or even bolo punches myself to deal with them effectively. And, in fact, doing that (training those things), if I don’t intend to actually use them, will be at the very least a waste of training time (which I could put to better use) and at the worst counterproductive to training those things that I want to do. If one wants to train against something specific, it’s much better to actually face someone skilled in that thing/approach/art than mimic it – usually poorly – ourselves.
I’m all for crosstraining, but there is a huge difference between what I call “combining various arts” and “covering your bases.” Some people just train different things without any longterm goal or plan, with no “coherent picture” in mind. The problem is the habits and priorities taught in art #1 will often contradict art #2. They overlap in that each art addresses the same problems, ranges, situations, aspects but each has its own specific ways of moving, standing, punching, kicking, etc. To do one “correctly” is to do the other “incorrectly.” Now you’re training two incompatible things. That’s not a recipe for success.
Instead, by using a “covering your bases” approach, you realize that there are common situations or aspects in fighting, and that there are certain needs or requisites that you must have covered to fight effectively (you find this very quickly when you fight). Much of it has to do with range but some of it with approach. When you find some aspect that is not covered in your art or approach, then you “cover that base” by finding some answer, some art for example, that deals with that aspect without any overlapping or dissonance between the two arts and you train that. If there is some overlap, you’ll need to set choices and priorities to suit you. Then, after covering your bases, you need to find ways to connect these various arts – how they can fit together, facilitate one another, etc. Now you have an individualized, coherent fighitng method where all your bases are covered.
There are reasons the WCK approach does not favor high kicks, including that they are incompatible with our principal method (the use of our other tools): when you use them they take us out of our game, just like a bolo punch does (until we “recover”). In my view, WCK is not a “kickboxing style” or approach, just as it isn’t a groundfighting style or approach, and to try and use our tools in kickboxing or in groundfighting while it may work (and I know some that have made it work), particularly against the not-very-skilled, we won’t get the full benefit of our tools/method that way. If someone wants to kickbox, there are better methods than WCK for developing good kickboxing (which explains why none of the world’s really good kickboxers practice WCK).
So while I have no problem with folks “adding” an outside game onto their WCK, I think how it is done, what things are adopted, needs to be approached with caution since those additions can easily compromise their WCK approach. Moreover, when we “add” something onto our WCK, we should call it what it is and not call it WCK.
OOOOHHH so I see…you don’t do any hard sparring! If you did you wouldn’t be saying such things.
After practicing a couple different lineages of Wing chun, and doing in depth study of other lineages (IMHO) it is not a complete system of fighting, it’s actually highly specified for a specific range of combat. And again…you have to take into consideration the wing chun you practice is not the same as other wing chun; most wing chun systems don’t use crescent kicks (pak gurk) for example. And I didn’t say 2 “leg techniques”…I said two kicks, you would typically couple that with at least chi gurk which utilizes jing, wang, bong, and jut gurk (and now you see two more leg techniques simply with that drill!). This is just elaboration for you…Im not going to get into this argument as to whether or not wing chun is “complete” again. It is what it is and most people are blind to it and simply won’t accept it, or haven’t sparred enough to see it.
The best teacher is sparring, and competence comes from experience in it. Being sure comes from testing what you practice in a resisting environment and getting positive results from someone who isn’t playing the same game as you are. If you are trusting everything you’re being told without questioning and testing…then you will always be guessing as you never will have experienced the answers.
“Come on Victor, can’t you do better than this to refute every thing I said in the article, lol.” (JR)
I DON’T CARE who wrote the article - this is not a personality contest.
It’s the content that I’m taking issue with.
High kicks are low percentage while being overly risky to the kicker…doubly so for high kicks that travel in the wide circular arc that crescent kicks do.
“OOOOHHH so I see…you don’t do any hard sparring! If you did you wouldn’t be saying such things.”
YOU GOT THE WRONG IDEA, TOTALLY WRONG.
In my first wing chun school (here in Brazil), we had combat (full contact sparring without protection) from the very beggining. And I know from my own experience that (full contact sparring) does not necessarily develop any Wing Chun Skill. Better saying, develop the ability of taking punishment or giving punishment. But if not closely supervised can produce A LOT of bad habits. THOSE WILL BE VERY DIFFICULT TO GET RID LATER. :eek:
If you want to be good in fighting, using Wing Chun or any other system, then you should first :rolleyes:
LOOK FOR A COMPETENT TEACHER (3 generations lineage at least)
TRAIN IN DAILY BASIS FOR A LONG TIME. (LET’S SAY AT LEAST 3 ~ 5 YEARS)
TRUST IN WHAT YOUR TEACHER SAYS TO YOU (if you do not trust him, why should you be there waisting your time?)
HAVE A SOLID FOUNDATION INTO THE BASICS
THEN…
YOU MAY TRY/ TEST WHAT YOU HAVE LEARNED IN “REAL FIGHTS”. Go to places where fights usually happen and pick some. And see how you go.
or you do not even have to learn a system, and go straight to the “real fights”, to learn the hard way. That is an option too! For some people, that works.
For one thing, don’t confuse SPARRING with a REAL FIGHT. Those are very different stuff.
And if you state that Wing Chun IS NOT a complete system, well, I think you did not have received enough practice/ information. Is pretty much common that notion of saying that Wing Chun is only a “Infighting Range” style. That is a complete misunderstanding.
Either way you choose to follow, good luck
I thought the article was fine.
If anything it was far too short, not enough words to explain the concepts presented for the uninitiated. Some pictures to show the stances and steps might have been better than the unrepresentative “cool” shot shown (though it was a good looking kick).
Joy might be right about you simple easy, but you do come across as arrogant and opinionated. How about you write an article and let everyone else take pot shots at it?
I have some articles at Rene’s site and in my sig links if you want to start arguments with someone else as well 
I would agree with this 100%.
Not all are willing or able to kick high. (Hence sour grapes sometimes.)
It’s not a requirement but it’s not that ineffective.
Due to the fact that the leg is a lot heavier, it connects much harder - Giving a weaker opponent a way of hurting a stronger one. But it takes a lot of hard work to develop high kicks.
Guys in K1 Max like Yilmaz and Yasuhiro are pretty good at the spinning back kick or hook kick to the head. Most of them can kick high well with the round kick. Murahama won his 1st round match in the recent Japan GP with a high round kick KO and he’s really short - like 5’3. Kohirumaki won in the final with a front kick KO to the head within the 1st minute of the first round.