[QUOTE=Hendrik;1265929]Tan is a chest horizontal forward with spiral movement.
Zhao yang is a ~ 45(? )degree forward and upward movement .
Different force flow type.[/QUOTE]
Ok. Yes. That makes sense. Thanks!
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1265928][QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1265892] However I feel turning away from the facing principle, not in side body but completely away, and having two of my hands and even entire body committed to one of the opponent’s arm to be far from applying wing chun principles.
Navin our understanding and perceptions are different on this point and that is ok with me..[/QUOTE]
Agreed Joy! but that’s the great thing in a discussion forum
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1265928] The two hands are committed to controlling the other person not just one arm.[/QUOTE]
The question is would sifu Fong attempt such a technique in a real life or death situation, I highly doubt that, I think he was just playing around to make the footage more flashy and interesting. The problem I see with such techniques is that it would take way to long to recover if the opponent counter’s it, you would end up in a bad position, and won’t be able to recover in time before being hit. The principles of wing chun are there to protect us by keeping our movements simple direct and economical when followed. Of course there are always exceptional individuals who can pull things off that most of us can’t such as a Muhammed Ali or Bruce Lee, perhaps sifu Fong is such an individual.
[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1265932][QUOTE=Vajramusti;1265928]
Agreed Joy! but that’s the great thing in a discussion forum
The question is would sifu Fong attempt such a technique in a real life or death situation, I highly doubt that, I think he was just playing around to make the footage more flashy and interesting. The problem I see with such techniques is that it would take way to long to recover if the opponent counter’s it, you would end up in a bad position, and won’t be able to recover in time before being hit. The principles of wing chun are there to protect us by keeping our movements simple direct and economical when followed. Of course there are always exceptional individuals who can pull things off that most of us can’t such as a Muhammed Ali or Bruce Lee, perhaps sifu Fong is such an individual.[/QUOTE]
Navin-he is showing development of TIMING…the technique is not the most important thing.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1265929]Tan is a chest horizontal forward with spiral movement.
Zhao yang is a ~ 45(? )degree forward and upward movement .
Different force flow type.[/QUOTE]
Only for your snake+crane wing chun maybe - but for mine this is utter nonsense.
Again, this is the downfall of those that no longer practice or apply thier WC with a partner, their ‘conclusions’ are not based on actual experience - only guesswork and conjecture.
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1265939]Only for your snake+crane wing chun maybe - but for mine this is utter nonsense.
Again, this is the downfall of those that no longer practice or apply thier WC with a partner, their ‘conclusions’ are not based on actual experience - only guesswork and conjecture.[/QUOTE]
It’s not only guesswork and conjecture, Hendrik has done his homework. Before even meeting Hendrik i knew in YKSWC Tan sau is also a chest horizontal forward with spiral movement. same in Kulo side body boxing, Same in Yik Kam wing chun and snake crane wing chun. I suspect the same in PFLWC. do you see a pattern here lol.
When tan sau is done above chest level without the spiral horizontal forward movement, it does not function the same way.
[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1265941]It’s not only guesswork and conjecture, Hendrik has done his homework. Before even meeting Hendrik i knew in YKSWC Tan sau is also a chest horizontal forward with spiral movement. same in Kulo side body boxing, Same in Yik Kam wing chun and snake crane wing chun. I suspect the same in PFLWC. do you see a pattern here lol.
When tan sau is done above chest level without the spiral horizontal forward movement, it does not function the same way.[/QUOTE]
When ones full set of snt doesn’t have the chest level tan sau. That is the signature of modern evolution.
[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1265941]It’s not only guesswork and conjecture, Hendrik has done his homework. Before even meeting Hendrik i knew in YKSWC Tan sau is also a chest horizontal forward with spiral movement. same in Kulo side body boxing, Same in Yik Kam wing chun and snake crane wing chun. I suspect the same in PFLWC. do you see a pattern here lol.
When tan sau is done above chest level without the spiral horizontal forward movement, it does not function the same way.[/QUOTE]
There was a visitor to HFY headquarters years back that tried telling our practitioners that the high tan sau in our form was incorrect and that it wouldn’t pass this his supposed ‘structure tests’. Needless to say, he couldn’t budge our high ‘straight’ tan sau when put to his ‘test’ 
That said, the usage of a tool is dictated by WC principle and concept - contact point on the kiu, position and leverage, etc - not because it’s done a certain way in a form. In our lineage we have 5 total tan sau - 3 'tan sau’s (1 center-line and 2 5-line) and also 2 'tan kiu’s, and yes, one has more of a spiralling/twisting nature than the other.But, the energetic and position is based upon the things I mentioned above once contact is made. You can do both spiral and non-spiral tan sau to the high reference. While we do both to our upper/high reference in our forms, I also know they work at this position from training them in application against live partners. Having someone like Henrdik, who never trains this way, come and say something can’t work is utter nonsense.
Which is why any discussion that is to be had on low vs. hi tan in application (spiral or otherwise) simply can’t be had with Hendrik - as he does not train partner applications and admittedly doesn’t spar. Which, BTW, are the only ways to know what is right/wrong or works/doesn’t work in any MA system. So no, he hasn’t done his homework :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1265945]When ones full set of snt doesn’t have the chest level tan sau. That is the signature of modern evolution.[/QUOTE]
This is the signature of someone that spends too much time looking at old scrolls and picture of other animal style arts and not training their admittedly incomplete WC.
[QUOTE=KPM;1265919]That’s not what he’s saying. Don’t you understand the stages of development? You learn a body dynamic and power expression before you ever even take a step. But wait, maybe you don’t do that in your Wing Chun?[/QUOTE]
It’s called sarcasm. If Hendrik can understand that SNT is to develop specific skills and we don’t actually fight in that stance with one arm out, then why doesn’t he understand that chi-sau is to develop specific skills and we don’t actually fight in that stance with both arms equally extended? It’s like all he has ever learned is SNT.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1265988]It’s called sarcasm. If Hendrik can understand that SNT is to develop specific skills and we don’t actually fight in that stance with one arm out, then why doesn’t he understand that chi-sau is to develop specific skills and we don’t actually fight in that stance with both arms equally extended? It’s like all he has ever learned is SNT.[/QUOTE]
Most of this discussion revolves around people thinking the model is the application or that the model is what is important.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1265894]The original tan sau is not the high tan sau. [/QUOTE]
If your opponent is 7 feet tall. When he punches at your head, do you have to raise your arm a bit higher in order to block it? The height of your block dose not depend on you but depend on your opponent’s punch.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1266178]If your opponent is 7 feet tall. When he punches at your head, do you have to raise your arm a bit higher in order to block it? The height of your block dose not depend on you but depend on your opponent’s punch.[/QUOTE]
haha, forget 7 feet tall - Hendrik’s mid level tan sau wouldn’t defend against someone your own height punching at your head, let alone somone taller!
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1266184]haha, forget 7 feet tall - Hendrik’s mid level tan sau wouldn’t defend against someone your own height punching at your head, let alone somone taller![/QUOTE]
Many years ago I tried to help someone to polish his solo form. For every “horizontal punches” that he did, I asked him to punch 30 degree upward. The reason is simple. He is only 5 feet tall. 