[QUOTE=KPM;1265796]Yeah, whatever dude! :rolleyes: You said “I doubt Hendrik has ever done free sparring or fighting of any kind” Now you are told that isn’t true and its still not good enough. I have the feeling it wouldn’t matter what anyone here said.[/QUOTE]
Maybe a comma will help; “free sparring, or fighting of any kind”.
Obviously I’m referring to sparring as a progression of WC training, and fighting with it at any level of intensity or protection. That’s why he’s asking such a newb question about the practicality of chi-sau structure in reality against BJJ and Boxing. That’s not a question anyone who has gone beyond that level of training, or understands its purpose, would ask.
Thanks you for the reply Eddie,
it’s refreshing to have a productive discussion on KFO for once lol.
[QUOTE=deejaye72;1265851]the guy that was training at my das’s school was actually a francis fong student who went to fu hok. maybe we are talking about the same guy. i think we are; as there are very few practioners. very nice man by the way. i dont believe the folklore either.[/QUOTE]
Yes I believe we are speaking about the same gentleman, super nice person that was very generous with his knowledge. He Helped my research out quite a bit at that time. I will always be greatful to him for that.
[QUOTE=deejaye72;1265851]we go real soft and get in real close; shifting somewhat sideways. very tai chi like is the only way i could describe it. i guess you could say side body. its very tight in close lot of lop da. sifu lau’s sensitivity training was soft and flowing, and snapping with power when needed. the perfect blending of hard and soft. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1265844]sorry Keith neither of those videos show close body Luk Sao, If you look closely at the video I posted, you will notice they move past the elbow range to control and strike.
The first video you posted they are using their arms as a “barrier”, in the second video sifu Fong does go past the elbow range a couple of times, but he seems to be mixing in a lot of non wing chun moves to do so, such as than jujitsu arm lock where he goes to the floor. and I know you are going to say it’s wing chun chin-na, but it’s not since it does not follow wing chun principles.[/QUOTE]
I don’t mean to be argumentative Navin, but please tell me how the guys in this video that you posted are doing things any differently than in the videos I posted? They are still rolling with the “modern” Luk Sao platform. They are still using their arms as a “barrier”. Heck, they don’t even close in to the close body position like in the videos I posted!
[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1265844]sorry Keith neither of those videos show close body Luk Sao, If you look closely at the video I posted, you will notice they move past the elbow range to control and strike.
The first video you posted they are using their arms as a “barrier”, in the second video sifu Fong does go past the elbow range a couple of times, but he seems to be mixing in a lot of non wing chun moves to do so, such as than jujitsu arm lock where he goes to the floor. and I know you are going to say it’s wing chun chin-na, but it’s not since it does not follow wing chun principles.[/QUOTE]
Navin- I have not looked at the video yet. I differ from your views. Fong sifu does wing chun and chinna comes naturally at advanced levels of wing chun when the opportunity is there.
Breaking, throwing and cavity attacks are functions that are performed naturally…with wing chun joint and body unity and balance and the center line and knowledge of the central axis of the body.
[QUOTE=KPM;1265882]I don’t mean to be argumentative Navin, but please tell me how the guys in this video that you posted are doing things any differently than in the videos I posted? They are still rolling with the “modern” Luk Sao platform. They are still using their arms as a “barrier”. Heck, they don’t even close in to the close body position like in the videos I posted!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aKH0uAFst0[/QUOTE]
Keith if you watch the clip again you will notice, at 0:08 into the clip these guys are doing the luk sao platform with their elbows touching each other’s elbows, an then at 0:18 and 0:23 when they attack they move past their opponent’s elbow to trap and control his bridge on the humerous bone of his arm to distroy his balance and structure. Although these guys are beginners and not very good, this was the best clip that I could find online to demo what I am referring to since Decipled YKSWC is still kept private.
But of course here we are only talking specificly about the luk sao platform difference, to truely get into wing chun close body range you need to apply side body facing principle which is usually done using the circling hands chi sao platform, which is very seldomly seen in the luk sao platform.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1265888]Navin- I have not looked at the video yet. I differ from your views. Fong sifu does wing chun and chinna comes naturally at advanced levels of wing chun when the opportunity is there.
Breaking, throwing and cavity attacks are functions that are performed naturally…with wing chun joint and body unity and balance and the center line and knowledge of the central axis of the body.[/QUOTE]
Don’t get me wrong Joy, I really like sifu Fong’s as a kung fu instructor and find him to be very humble and skileed. I can certainly appreciate what he is trying to do. However I feel turning away from the facing principle, not in side body but completely away, and having two of my hands and even entire body committed to one of the opponent’s arm to be far from applying wing chun principles. I do believe that wing chun is a complete art with it’s own way of applying chin-na and throwing as part of the art, However When I apply these aspects of the system I adhere to all wing chun principles. I even have chin-na where my structure is holding the opponent or breaking a joint leaving both of my hands free without the need to grap with my fingers while I am striking.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1265895]How can a barrier limited and range limited practice develop skill for under pressure free sparing which is boundless and no barrier?[/quote]
How can one train a static position as in SNT to develop skill for fully dynamic sparring and fighting?
You’ve been involved in WC for several decades, right? Why don’t you understand the stages of development?
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1265894]The original tan sau is not the high tan sau.
The original tan sau is the type of tan sau as shown in the above video clip in my previous post[/QUOTE]
Well, that’s the Tan Sau I’ve been doing for years! The height varies depending on the application and need. I really don’t see the need to give it a different name if I end up using it higher than shoulder level.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1265915]So you can fight without moving your feet. That’s amazing![/QUOTE]
That’s not what he’s saying. Don’t you understand the stages of development? You learn a body dynamic and power expression before you ever even take a step. But wait, maybe you don’t do that in your Wing Chun?
[QUOTE=LFJ;1265915]So you can fight without moving your feet. That’s amazing![/QUOTE]
Feet dynamic on seven bows force flow handling doesn’t have to step out, and it doesn’t mean stand still. There are x y z axis and straight or spiral handling action and reaction force dynamic as in the attach photo.
At close body short strike art, one stick into the opponent body, without those micro feet movement dynamic how is a short strike art suppose to work without force flow axis develop?
If one doesn’t develop the seven bows, force flow, and the dynamic axis, what does one develop in snt?
Just moving arm around in a limited range in that lock up stance which break ones body into two parts?
[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1265892] However I feel turning away from the facing principle, not in side body but completely away, and having two of my hands and even entire body committed to one of the opponent’s arm to be far from applying wing chun principles.
Navin our understanding and perceptions are different on this point and that is ok with me.. The two hands are committed to controlling the other person not just one arm.
[QUOTE=KPM;1265917]Well, that’s the Tan Sau I’ve been doing for years! The height varies depending on the application and need. I really don’t see the need to give it a different name if I end up using it higher than shoulder level.[/QUOTE]
Tan is a chest horizontal forward with spiral movement.
Zhao yang is a ~ 45(? )degree forward and upward movement .
The height varies depending on the application and need. I really don’t see the need to give it a different name if I end up using it higher than shoulder level.