shotokan is pretty lame dood. If u visit Okinawan karate teachers and tell them u do shotokan they often bar u from entering
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Shotokan has degenerated into pure Japanese Sport. As I commented elsewhere Okinawan Karate has it’s own organization instead of joining the one Japan has. The reason is that Okinawa has not altered it’s foundation for Karate, namely that it is for matters of life and death! I think it is the shortcomings of Shotokan that is the reason so many of it’s practioners try to discover hidden applications in the Kata. They know something is wrong but a lot of that is because their Kata is done differently than it was originally on Okinawa. Case in point is how the Wankuan Kata is done. In Okinawa it has the Tiger Claw technique near the beginning. In Japan it is done with closed fists, How can they hope to get it right? I saw a video of a small Japanese Sensei demonstrating it’s “applications” of the form by keeping distance from a larger opponent, a Sport approach so judges could see a scoring technique. Only he was still in range of his opponent’s longer limbs! In Okinawan Karate he would instead get closer to jam those limbs and strike, like the Southern Gung Fu systems the Okinawans got so many of their Kata from! You’d know the smaller man scored by the larger man dropping because it was a fight, not a tournament! So compared to Okinawan Karate systems Shotokan IS pretty lame, but then so is Taekwondo which originally got it’s Kata from Shotokan. Both systems would do better to see how Okinawan Uechi Ryu and Shorin Ryu do their Katas!
its really about how with the information age you see more clearly past deceptions, and shotokan is not an honest tradition.
this is why modern people still train flowery kung fu, but now not with the delusion that it can be used for self defense; they know its hollow and they prefer it that way.
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Sadly this is certainly true in Mainland China. Even the more traditional forms there are getting altered to be more like the Modern “Wushu” for tournament kuen (Kata) competitions. Recently on Youtube a fellow tracked down the school of Yongtai Tiger which was purported to be the basis for Uechi-Ryu Karate. I had always heard that it was from Pangai Noon but this perhaps explains why the Pangai Noon were referred to as “Tiger” stylists even though their three forms were based not just on Tiger but Crane and Dragon as well. Anyway, it turns out that those three forms were part of Yongai Tiger but now they do them differently and have created new forms strictly for their tournament use. They as much as admitted that only their elders did the forms the old way and practiced actual self defense! It was pitiful and an obvious disappointment to the yutube guy! But before the CCP was ruining Kung Fu/Gung Fu the real deal did get spread around the world. There is plenty of styles of actual use outside of China like Hung Gar, Choy Lee Fut, Wing Chun etc. Notice it is the Southern Styles which make up the majority of valid fighting systems as it was the Northern Styles that were the basis of the sport Wushu in the first place!
this is equally true in the imperial core. ur just regurgitating brand recognition from a bygone era when cantonese chefs were trying to make it big and escape poverty by selling their borderlands fishermen hilbilly kung fu to westerners. chinatown kung fu kwoons is like deli shop or hair salons, just cultural relics of immigrant communities long gone. all these kung fu each have distorted and corrupted themselves in different eras but each still hold relevant historical and cultural value.
the yongtai guys got smeared for refusing to cooperate. their made up forms are still more authentic than chinatown chop socky kung fu. fujian shaolin left behind contingency plans in their physical movements that mess up the health for outsider students unless corrected, such as when they taught the cantonese wrong on purpose centuries back.
The original stuff the Yongtai “Tiger” style has was of great value but their current output is just Wushu pooh pooh! I disagree with what you said this time around. It is what it is! I still maintain that the majority of useable martial arts were derived from Southern China, Okinawa and I’ll add Indonesia to that list because I have seen a lot of good Silat!
To add to an old saying, “The Style Doesn’t Make The Man” but the man makes the style work. Assuming he worked really hard AND smart at it AND that the style in question had something to offer besides being the only Dojo one could get to!
newsflash, the “original” stuff of yongtai tiger has never been shown to the public. nobody outside of their families gets to see the real stuff. there’s layers to this sheet bra.
Dude, anyone who has studied the history of the Chinese Martial Arts knows that the Family Styles are the smallest percentage of the styles created. The majority of styles seen in action are not “Family Styles” but lots of them are very good systems and if not for their output we would not be talking up Okinawan Karate today!
Archaic Southern kung fu are almost exclusively passed via familial clans. They make up random sh1t to teach outsiders since the 1850s. So what you deem to be now “classical” Southern kung fu was the commercialized stuff they taught in the 1800s to milk monies from opium dealers and scholar nerds. The type of forms taught depends on the tastes and whims of the customers at different time periods.
Before the 1850s the only legit non family public kung fu style nation wide was tantui. It was the official curriculum of the Manchu Green Banner. everybody trained only tantui.
All the Southern styles except maybe Wing Chun were styles of families like Hung or Choy though when the styles were had their rudiments formed in temples the families adopting specific methods came later.The Triads/Tongs were known for very effective styles that were organization not family related. Ditto styles against the Ching Dynasty. And given how the Chinese hate to lose face I can’t imagine their deliberately teaching junk that would fail and cause them disgrace. From everything I’ve seen of the Southern Systems they look pretty sound to me. I will grant you there were some “closed door” forms taught to the heirs in the various Kwoon though. And I think if you checked out someplace like Green Dragon Studios in Ohio you’ll find some top notch Gung Fu that is not restricted to anyone’s family members! As to tantui there is more than one version of it. Which version of it was the original?
I did field interviews and co authored some books and spent the appropriate amount of energy answering your understandable but outdated claims.
A lot of Chinatown kung fu’s legacy is that their western students don’t feel a true connection to the East, but a sense of ownership over something paid and bought for. Fujian tiger is the direct ancestor of Cantonese tiger, so it is logical for Chinatowners to devalue and downplay Fujian tiger. The more you go down the research rabbit hole the more Chinatown kung fu’s legacy is I’m saying this and I don’t even like Fujian tiger style that much.
Or that although you don’t train overseas kung fu, because you believe the Chinatown kung fu narrative then any divergence from that is an attack on your identity or self worth.
The main criticism of Fujian tiger is that they are trying to look cooler for mainstream consumers by imitating Cantonese kung fu. If that decreases their value, what does that make of Chinatown kung fu?
So you admit that there is still some Kung Fu of value overseas. I was getting the impression that you didn’t think there was any Kung Fu of value left on the planet. Singapore and Taiwan surely have much to recommend them Kung Fu wise! By the way, the Green Dragon Studio at least when Sifu John Allen was alive, was known to go to one of those two countries doing demonstrations of Kung Fu. Nothing seems to impress you but that impresses me! We started this coversation about the deficiencies of Shotokan Karate compared to the superior Okinawan syatems. The Okinawans that went to China to study Gung Fu were nobody’s family there and came back to Okinawa to found systems you respect. That was way more recent than the 1500s. Your logic is incomprehensible to me!
I’m just going streams of consciousness flowing style because you randomly started talking sh1t about Fujian tiger boxing. My point is the sh1ttiest lineage holder style, whether Okinawan, Chinatown Cantonese, or Fujian native, is more deep and wise than any commercial Western offshoot. At the highest level East Asian Traditional Martial Arts all converge, and they still get they ass beat by three months training MMA teenager.
I’m actually a big fan of kung fu dumpster diving, gleaning wisdom from even the sh1ttiest styles and schools. I just don’t talk sh1t unless talked sh1t to.
I’m not into cursing over a disagreement. It shows a lack of self control and discipline! And please try to understand this one thing. I know what you are saying; I just totally disagree with you and your conclusions! So let’s drop this conversation altogether, hmmm?