Like MK says use what works in the context of fighting. The other movements in a set can be useful in other ways.
[QUOTE=Eric Olson;822443]I guess my question is, do we lose something essential by stripping those things out? In other words, is the whole greater than the sum of the parts.
EO[/QUOTE]
Well, you don’t throw them away. You still need all that stuff. But I think it’s important to understand what the intent of the movement is.
Many teachers make up whacky kung fooey applications for moves that were never intended for such purposes.
As an example, in one of my forms, we have a swimming move. I was told you are grabbing arms, twisting them around, then flipping the guy head over feet. Once I started MMA, I realized it was just a pummeling drill built into the form.
[QUOTE=Eric Olson;822422]No aliases, no ignore list in the signature this time around. What you see is what you get. ;-).
EO[/QUOTE]
Fair enough, and for that I’ll give you a real answer
I think that kung fu has BECOME too complicated… I don’t think it started out that way, I don’t think it has even been that way for very long relatively speaking
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;822448]Well, you don’t throw them away. You still need all that stuff. But I think it’s important to understand what the intent of the movement is.
Many teachers make up whacky kung fooey applications for moves that were never intended for such purposes.
As an example, in one of my forms, we have a swimming move. I was told you are grabbing arms, twisting them around, then flipping the guy head over feet. Once I started MMA, I realized it was just a pummeling drill built into the form.[/QUOTE]
I remember thinking for a long time about a technique in a form. I talked to a few people about what they thought the application was.. When I asked to see the form again, it wasn’t included. I asked about the technique, he just laughed and thought that I was looking too carefully at his movements. He told me to stop inventing technqiues, by copying him literally. His point was kung fu was personal, and once you get the idea its unique to the person. The other point was use your head and don’t just follow what someone tells you. I have seen a form done a few different ways sometimes by the same person, all correct in my opinion.
people aren’t encyclopedias, so why learn 1,000 forms with 10,000 variations? I don’t practise most of the forms I learned anymore..but I do practice a few just so I can teach my kids in the future. I personally enjoy seeing traditional Kung fu forms. Its a interesting art.
[QUOTE=bodhitree;822444][SIZE=“7”]THAT[/SIZE] was a sweet episode!~[/QUOTE]
lol, ya. Still the best T.V. show ever made IMO
so sad only 2 seasons
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;822451]Fair enough, and for that I’ll give you a real answer
I think that kung fu has BECOME too complicated… I don’t think it started out that way, I don’t think it has even been that way for very long relatively speaking[/QUOTE]
I agree, Muay Thai is one of the bets kung fu systems out there.
And I am not “kidding”.
Forms are like onions. The more layers you peel, the more tears you are going to get. :eek:
Applications are like a box of chocolates. You will never know what you gonna get. 
Anyroad, Kung Fu is meant to be holistic training IMHO. All elements within should work together in harmony. Consider a poem or a painting, if you chew on only a word, a patch of color, a stanza, etc., you are going to miss the message as a whole. A good form is such that addresses traditional knowledge (ie worldview), culture (ie human geography), Believe system (ie religion or philosophy), medicine (holistic vs allophathic), martial attributes (both marco and mirco scales). Everything mentioned should be addressed at once; hence, old timer would claim that one form can be the sum of the entire system. That’s the reason they often cherrish the form(s) like gold.
BTW, some moves in the forms are transitional moves linking combinations together. They don’t necessarily have applications but they could be style specific attribute building tools. They shouldn’t be over looked lightly.
But now with the modern Wushu crapolas people have lost faith in traditional forms altogether. It’s sad but c’est la vie in a land where government deliberately wanted to control the hearts and minds of the people by offering fragmentation of martial academia by sportification. 
If people like to roll in shiat, well.. what can we say? 
Mantis108
IMHO Kung Fu became too complicated when forms were more emphasized than sparring. The break down of hundreds of intricate techniques, most of which you would never use, has caused confusion and done more harm than good. Also, adding flashy moves for the sake of looking cool or scoring high in a forms competition led to useless techniques and unrealistic patterns. Put all this together and you have something that at one time was probably simple and effective turned into something flashy and useless. The emergence of San Da/ San Shou ruleset of competition is probably one of the best things that could have happened to CMA.
On that note, IMO Forms competition in its very self can be a huge catalyst for adding flashy looking movments to form. To get the OOOOH’s and AHHH’s
people always want to out do the next guy, so you get a competative attitude in regards to perfroming difficult acrobatic and arial techniques to please the eye. It just keeps stepping itself up a notch.
Which also can be a good thing. (It just keeps stepping itself up a notch.)
I think as time goes on modernized form and traditional form/fighting will move further and further away from each other.
We already are, within our communities, developing an easily seen seperation between traditional and modern sets.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;822458]I agree, Muay Thai is one of the bets kung fu systems out there.
And I am not “kidding”.[/QUOTE]
thats because its practiced and competed as a sport
following well developed rules
and complying with all state laws
like judo, boxing, …?SANDA.?..
thats why I like the combative sports
they teach application
of technique:cool:
but for demonstration
good Form comes from correct technique
then to add individual capability and finesse
ooops, there it is
martial ART
I think as time goes on modernized form and traditional form/fighting will move further and further away from each other.
We already are, within our communities, developing an easily seen seperation between traditional and modern sets.
If people stop using them to teach fighting ( leave that to drills, equipment work and sparring) and stick to suing them for other purposes, forms will find their place.
Its when people become disilusioned with the results that things get dropped,
Doing forms and being told you are learning to fight and then getting your butt kicked because real fighting is nothing like forms is not the way to go.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;822500]If people stop using them to teach fighting ( leave that to drills, equipment work and sparring) and stick to suing them for other purposes, forms will find their place.
Its when people become disilusioned with the results that things get dropped,
Doing forms and being told you are learning to fight and then getting your butt kicked because real fighting is nothing like forms is not the way to go.[/QUOTE]
But, but…but I invested 40 years in this schit!.
[QUOTE=diego;822507]But, but…but I invested 40 years in this schit!.:([/QUOTE]
lol
I want to know what kind of mindset is in place when a guy learns a form/set and thinks to himself
“man this is exactly like fighting”
IMO, anyone with half a brain and a little bit of common sense can tell that fighting is not like doing a form by yourself.
where did all the stupid people come from?
[QUOTE=Lucas;822516]lol
I want to know what kind of mindset is in place when a guy learns a form/set and thinks to himself
“man this is exactly like fighting”
IMO, anyone with half a brain and a little bit of common sense can tell that fighting is not like doing a form by yourself.
where did all the stupid people come from?[/QUOTE]
They came from more stupid people…stupid came from i’m guessing someone lied once, and he knew he was untrue so he played stupid…prolly in the bible somewhere:)
Forms
Well, I can only say what I know from my limited experience so here it goes.
Forms.
I think that no one should assume that the way the form presents movements are the exact way it is to be used in a fight. Sure, some forms are pretty straight forward but one should always remember that the main purpose of the form was to teach the style but still be secretive.
Like I sated above I can only speak about my experiences so I cant really speak about other styles but in all the Bak Mei I have learned I have yet to find a movement that cant be used for fighting. I would probably have to adjust(because not all movements are straight forward in their applications) the movement but it is there. You just have to look. The more you understand the principles of your art the easier it will be to find the movements. From there you will have to train it and “presto!” instant “secret technique”. You just have to try.
I agree with the others who stated that Kung Fu is simple but people have made it overly complicated. I assume it wasnt meant to be however I dont think that it was meant to be easy either. I think that the reason it has become that way is due to the secrecy of the past masters and the fact that people are always looking for the super amazing special punch/kick/etc that makes the style great.
I believe that we have hollywood and wushu to thank for that.
That was my .02.
I hope this helps,
WF
yes and no
Here’s my take on forms…
I don’t know.
The traditional ones teach you a new way of moving that’s crucial for the application of whatever style you’re learning. But just doing forms and thinking you can fight is way off- but then again- I’ll pull combination sequences out of forms when I’m playing hands and be able to land a shot or two. But the form as a whole never plays out in a fight- just one or two combinations from that form.
How many of you have been in class doing applications and somebody counters the technique being taught? The instructor sees the counter- thinks about it- then devises a counter for the counter. Now would that work or is that hindsight proving to be 20/20 vision?
That’s kind’ve how I feel about forms. I think the individual applications work- it’s the string of applications that may not work.
the B.
Yes, kung fu is overly complicated to the meager minds of mentally handicapped students.
And groundfighters and grapplers, of course. (But we already knew that, didn’t we?)
I also vote for yes and no
I also think that it is both simple and overly complicated. The techniques in the forms are quite simple, once I understand the theory of how and when it should be applied properly. But sometimes, arriving at that understanding gets overly complicated. This has to do with a lot of what is passed on from the teacher. There are a lot of reasons why a teacher cannot pass on the full understanding. Ranging from the teacher himself don’t know to don’t care. In addition, it may also not be the fault of teacher, but the fault of the student. Ranging from someone that can’t grasp the concept to someone that just want to learn more forms to advance to the next belt/sash. There are a lot of combinations of these teachers and students issues within any MA’s, so I won’t go into it since it has already been covered all over the board.
For the case where there is a willing student and a willing teacher to pass on the information, the overly complication lies within the amount of knowledge of the teacher. My base art is Long Fist, which starts out with 10/12 roads of Tan Tui and the first two forms of Lien Bu and Gong Li. If the teacher only has the knowledge of striking, then all the techniques within those basic forms are explained in the context of striking techniques. Even if the teacher and student is willing to spend a large amount of time in breaking down the techniques and try to apply it, some of the techniques still don’t make enough sense to use realistically.
However, I was fortunately to have exposure to Shuai Jiao, Taiji and XingYi. From those arts, I now have the benefit of seeing that those strike techniques, esp. those that don’t make too much sense are for grappling moves, or to train body structure and not necessary only striking techniques. The real way of understanding the theory and application of the techniques is to break it down, and practice it with a partner in some type of sparring environment. This is what I like about MMA, that they go out and find out what really works and what don’t. Unfortunely, I’m too old (more due to family and career commitments) to spend more time to train in a realistic manner.
In our culture, esp. the west, we want everything fast. We want to feel accomplishment by learning new forms or getting the new belt. We get bored or feel stagnate if we don’t get to learn a new form in the next x number of months, and we want to drop out. I see that happening a lot. I’m now a little wiser, not a lot, but a little bit more. I have learned quite a few forms, but I am now more fascinated in going back to the basic of Tan Tui, Lien Bu and Gong Li and understand more of the techniques buried within these forms.
I’m not an expert and I could be wrong, but at least this is what I have discovered in my path of kung fu.
if you try to copy the movement of a form it will be hard to learn. you have to know the meaning.
one technique at a time. in three years i only learned 5 or 6 techniques.
if you say forms look nothing like fighting, forms moves are exaggerated yes, but you shouldn’t say fighting has to look like this or that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUp1D81kLW8
if you practice the basics a lot, then everything else gets easier. you have to spar.
ps. everybody are raised watching tv learning that boxing and kickboxing is the proper way to fight. when you see form you think “ching chang chong” the crane stance and bruce lee’s high pitched scream. this is the real reason you can’t fight with kung fu. when you fight for real, you don’t want to look like an idiot if you lose.
IMO a lot of the students nowadays are impatient and wants everything right there in one sitting. Not all movements in a form have an application. A lot of it are transitional movements to get to the next technique. The understanding of when and how to use a technique is key and your teacher should be able to demonstrate or break this down for you.
Yes, you can take away these transitional movements and just concentrate on the “meat and potatos”, but you can do that when you’re practicing on your own…better yet, with a sparring partner.
Kung Fu forms are not that complicated once you put the time and effort to understand what’s behind it all.