[QUOTE=Liddel;750893]
They dont realise - In Chi Sao we block the action FIRST, in Fighting we catch the body FIRST.
If people dont understand the difference and treat it like real fighting then they certainly will develope bad habbits IME.[/QUOTE]
Anytime you are training something that is different than what will happen in fighting, you are training bad habits.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;750899]Anytime you are training something that is different than what will happen in fighting, you are training bad habits.[/QUOTE]
I agree to some extent. but at what cost…
With the majority of “drills” where i train the only thing thats different to real fighting is not connecting - mainly due to the fact we have bare hands and we couldnt train as long if we did connect. So to complement this training we hit pads and each other in sparring with gloves to avoid said problem.
You dont break limbs when at grappling training do you ?
But you know you can if the situation arises.
Every art has some aspect of what we’re discussing here dont they ?
Does any art specifically train in street clothes with shoes on.
What limits or boundaries are thier in your POV Dale ?
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;750877]Many, if not most, people do chi sao with chest strikes only.
How do you do it?
Of course even if you do full force strikes with protective equipment, you are still starting from the unrealistic steering wheel position.[/QUOTE]
Many, if not most, don’t do chi sao with chest strikes only. I’ve been around a lot more WC schools than you, I’d say. Only schools descended from Yip Man and YKS tend to use the steering wheel position.
As I said before, you palm to the face or punch under the jaw.
You don’t have to start from a steering wheel position either. (e.g. the Pan Nam style does not.) But the focus is on getting good at close range WC techniques so one guy running off like a chicken isn’t very good for training that. Any close position is fine to start from.
Sparring would be used to practice longer ranges.
Why do you even care?
It is a training drill where you try to practice WC techniques. The same techniques that you can use in a fight. The mechanics of the “rules” are just ways to enable you to practice them. For different types of techniques you can modify the rules and no one could care less. There is no Bible for this stuff.
[QUOTE=Jeff Bussey;750888]It’s pulled.[/QUOTE]
Why pull a palm to the head? It’s not going to injure them. Just don’t shove up on their nose and they’ll be fine.
The way ive been taught is that if you are doing offensive techniques properly, strkeing to the chest is an indicator that you “can” strike to the face because you have cleared the path to the center. Once you have trapped someone using lop da for instance there is nothing protecting the face from a strike so a strike to the face is implied by striking to the chest. And even when striking to the chest, one must be aware of the offensive body mechanics involved with said strike. You can’t over extend the punching arm to much because if you were to strike with a fully extended arm to the chest, that might indicate that you have over commited and would otherwise not be able to faun sau quickly, an opponent could counter with a arm lock or offensive tech, or there would not be enough power if the situation happened to be real, so you kind of use your arm placement as a guidline to follow so you do not develop a bad habit.
This is just one example of many examples of how you “use” chi sao to show you proper form, timing, balance, etc…that could translate to help you fight better in a real situation using wing chun.
Now that being said, I also do not only do chi sao to find all the answers to fighting which is what some might ask, assume or imply with some following remarks that are sure to come. There are many “drills” to practice to develop good fighting skills like sparring, bag work, running, forms training, etc…
Never do I assume that the practice of chi sao would be the same as a real fight and anyone who does is either being taught wrong, misinformed or in wonderland.
Ok, out of curiosity, how many of the people who train wing chun regularly here are taught that Chi Sau is the ultimate expression of the art?
And the second question: How many TRAIN as though chi sau was the ultimate expression of the art? (This is different from the first question)
Just to give an example of my own experiences, I’ve always been taught Chi Sau as a bunch of fixed drills, where we start with full cooperation from the partner, and gradually build up intensity and resistance (In the form of both speed and power) for those individual drills. Once each of the individual drills are understood, it becomes randomized.
I’ve never heard the terms Poon Sau, or Gor Sau used in my school, but it’s possible that I’ve been taught these things without the terminology. If someone could clarify those terms it would be appreciated.
I’ve learned other things in the same manner as chi sau, but starting from a squaring off position.
We hit pretty hard to the chest or gut, but pull punches to he head. But at the same time, we expect to get whacked if our defense isn’t working. The goal is to develop sensitivity, and reaction. Nothing more.
At the end of the day, we put on some head gear, some MMA gloves, and spar with varying levels of intensity (anything form light taps to knocking each other silly). We vary the intensity so that we have the opportunity to work in some of the skills we’ve learned from chi sao or other exercieses as the intensity increases.
Do other people’s training dffer much from this?
[QUOTE=Liddel;750905]
You dont break limbs when at grappling training do you ? [/QUOTE]
No, but I am applying full force until the moment the opponent taps. If the opponent does not tap his joint will be snapped.
There is a big difference between applying a joint lock at full force until the opponent taps and pulling punches.
Do Boxers train against leg and groin kicks ?
No, but they train almost exactly as they fight.
Do Aikido guys retract punches, or leave them out to lock and manipulate suiting the style?
Do Judo schools hit pads and punch each other (GNP) ?
Like boxing, they train like they fight… just with a different emphasis.
Does a TKD practitioner spar an opponent with more punches or kicks ?
I’m kind of a fan of the athleticism of TKD, although I think it is pretty limited due to it’s reliance on high kicks.
Does any art specifically train in street clothes with shoes on.
Training in a gi is a close approximation of street clothes. Same with wearing wrestling shoes. Same with t-shirts. Lots of styles do these things.
What limits or boundaries are thier in your POV Dale ?
My point of view is to train as close to real as possible. I guess the limitation to that is increased chance of injury… and that lots of t-shirts get torn from choke grips… and that when you get choked out with a t-shirt, you have a welt on your neck that makes it look like you just survived a hanging.
I guess another limitation is that you don’t always feel like training at that level of realism.
Right absolutely. In Chi sao we’re not hitting to the head.
I’ll have to tell that to my instructors and training partners, and get them to apologise for all the facial bruises and black eyes they have given me during chi sao sessions.
Nobody with any sense and remaining IQ points spars full contact with no restrictions or protective gear all the time. Getting knocked out once or twice can be educational, same as being choked out. Regular concussion is BAD for you. The brain cannot be toughened. Though you defintely need to learn to shed and to take a punch.
Clinch work, with attached striking is arguably just as good at developing useful sensitivity. Chi sao also teaches correct structure and limb positioning for WC techniques, depending on what value that may or may not have to you.
Does any art specifically train in street clothes with shoes on.
If you train in street clothes all the time and allow the collar and sleeve manipulation in BJJ, judo, etc. you are going to be spending mucho cash on street clothes. Like a new shirt and set of pants every session. The gi is just a version of clothes designed to take extended punishment.
Training in trainers (running shoes) is done at many schools. You don’t train in dress shoes or stillettos for the same reason you don’t train in tuxedos. IMPRACTICAL. Though then again some train in those Chinese slippers which IMO are about the least practical shoes for MA training ever invented.
It might be a good idea to train barefoot now and then. Things might kick off at the beach, or during a home invasion in the early hours while you were in bed.
I asked - Do Boxers train against leg and groin kicks ?
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;750933]
No, but they train almost exactly as they fight.[/QUOTE]
Dale, i totally agree but i asked these questions of you as we were discussing “realism”, not wether a style fights how they train.
Hence my questions about examples of other styles not training realistically.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;750933]
My point of view is to train as close to real as possible. I guess the limitation to that is increased chance of injury…
I guess another limitation is that you don’t always feel like training at that level of realism. [/QUOTE]
Totally see your POV. But remember one thing about VT - (at least for me)
So we sacrifice the ability in Chi Sao / Poon Sao / Gor Sao / Lux Sao etc
to hit full force, because we train with bare hands in these platforms.
Fully realising this, we also complement our training with sparring (with gloves) - and pad work with and without gloves.
From a VT (standup) POV i want to train as close to real as i can. IMO pulling punches is a necessary part of the VT training i do and it doesnt happen all the time, people still get hit pulled pushed tripped, ive accidentally broken a friends nose when sparring, with an overhead elbow (kap Jarn). :o
The realism is there but i admit not all the time. 
Hey Edmund
[QUOTE=Edmund;750913]Why pull a palm to the head? It’s not going to injure them. Just don’t shove up on their nose and they’ll be fine.[/QUOTE]
you don’t think a palm to the head will injure them? and if you do a full force to the nose you don’t think that might injure them, I mean it’s not going to be serious but I’ll keep pulling mine
Hey anerlich
[QUOTE=anerlich;750937]I’ll have to tell that to my instructors and training partners, and get them to apologise for all the facial bruises and black eyes they have given me during chi sao sessions.
Nobody with any sense and remaining IQ points spars full contact with no restrictions or protective gear all the time. Getting knocked out once or twice can be educational, same as being choked out. Regular concussion is BAD for you. The brain cannot be toughened. Though you defintely need to learn to shed and to take a punch.
Clinch work, with attached striking is arguably just as good at developing useful sensitivity. Chi sao also teaches correct structure and limb positioning for WC techniques, depending on what value that may or may not have to you.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not saying that it doesn’t happen but they are accidents and that’s fine. People at my club have had broken fingers, split lips, bloody noses etc Nothing serious. I think that’s why it doesn’t go unnoticed when someone pulls their strike to my head
J
[QUOTE=Edmund;750913]Why pull a palm to the head? It’s not going to injure them. Just don’t shove up on their nose and they’ll be fine.[/QUOTE]
one of the times I’ve seen a cheek bone broken was from a palm.
[QUOTE=Liddel;750905]I agree to some extent. but at what cost…
With the majority of “drills” where i train the only thing thats different to real fighting is not connecting - mainly due to the fact we have bare hands and we couldnt train as long if we did connect. So to complement this training we hit pads and each other in sparring with gloves to avoid said problem.
You dont break limbs when at grappling training do you ?
But you know you can if the situation arises.
Every art has some aspect of what we’re discussing here dont they ?
Does any art specifically train in street clothes with shoes on.
What limits or boundaries are thier in your POV Dale ?[/QUOTE]
in bjj I have seen muscles ripped and joints snapped. I saw a collar bone broken just this past weekend at a tourney our school organized. it is full force until the tap. no tap = joint snap.
same with judo and boxing. they fight how they train. u don’t see judoka punhing mitts, but you don’t see them punching when they fight, either.
when I trained jkd, we always wore shoes and wore street clothes ifwe wanted.
[QUOTE=Airdrawndagger;750916]The way ive been taught is that if you are doing offensive techniques properly, strkeing to the chest is an indicator that you “can” strike to the face because you have cleared the path to the center. Once you have trapped someone using lop da for instance there is nothing protecting the face from a strike so a strike to the face is implied by striking to the chest.[/quote]
sure, the reverse is also true. a face strike can imply a chest strike. The problem is that you fight how you train. Ever notice how many fighters punch only to the head? Why do they do that? Because in training, they head hunt.
[QUOTE=Liddel;750942]I asked - Do Boxers train against leg and groin kicks ?
Dale, i totally agree but i asked these questions of you as we were discussing “realism”, not wether a style fights how they train.
Hence my questions about examples of other styles not training realistically.
[/QUOTE]
still very real training. How often do you deal with kickers in the street? Also, their primary realism is a boxing ring. you don’t hear many people saying they are taking boxing for self defense - they are training so they can box. The added benefit is that boxing is great for streetfighting. WC on the other hand, is supposed to be an excellent streetfighting style. This being the case, you would expect to see training that reflects that.
[QUOTE=Liddel;750942]- The nature of VT actions make it necessary to practice without gloves or protective gear on your hands. WHY ?
While it may be true that gloves “inhibit touch and the way we control actions”, there is nothing in the “nature of VT” which makes it “necessary to practice without gloves or protective gear on your hands.”
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;750767]From another discussion, I came up with a question: Do you feel WC ‘Chi Sau’ is for fighting, or is it just a training drill?
If so why, or if not why?
Thanks,
Jonathan
(and if this has bean hashed out already, I appologize - I’m too lazy to search, and would like to start the discussion again anyway if it was..)[/QUOTE]
Johnathan,
What’s up? To answer this question, I will need to mimic Socrates.
If you and I are to discuss chi sau, we must first define our terms.
I’ve come to realize that when I say chi sau, it is not potato versus potaato to all those on internet forums I converse with. There is a HUGE difference in what ‘chi sau’ means as a drill or practice. It ranges from a static steering wheel type drill to a fair approximation of range and energy sparring. There also is a large difference in the way different families or lineages train it.
So I will add a corollary question to your initial one.
How do you define ‘chi sau’ ?
Chi sao is like the tango – it takes two people cooperating to do it. By cooperating, I mean they are agreeing (implicitly) to move in certain ways, behave in certain ways, react in certain ways, etc., no matter how “hard” they go. If one side doesn’t do those things, a fight breaks out! You can’t do chi sao unless the other guy cooperates and goes along with the game.
A problem arises when chi sao is used for “training” in that we come to rely on those “chi sao fixed patterns of behavior” – which are not the actions or behaviors that will take place in actual fighting – and will form corresponding habits that while effective in dealing with those actions, are not effective in fighting (where those sorts of responses won’t happen).
Chi sao is a good platform for teaching fundamental skills; it is a poor platform for training fighting skills.
[QUOTE=Liddel;750942]- The nature of VT actions make it necessary to practice without gloves or protective gear on your hands. WHY ?
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;751007]Chi sao is like the tango – it takes two people cooperating to do it. By cooperating, I mean they are agreeing (implicitly) to move in certain ways, behave in certain ways, react in certain ways, etc., no matter how “hard” they go. If one side doesn’t do those things, a fight breaks out! You can’t do chi sao unless the other guy cooperates and goes along with the game.
[/QUOTE]
So to clarify, this is how you define ‘chi sau’? And how you train it? Or is it rather
the definition that has led you to abandon ‘chi sau’ as a training drill? Or morph it into something you do with a different name?
A problem arises when chi sao is used for “training” in that we come to rely on those “chi sao fixed patterns of behavior” – which are not the actions or behaviors that will take place in actual fighting – and will form corresponding habits that while effective in dealing with those actions, are not effective in fighting (where those sorts of responses won’t happen).
Chi sao is a good platform for teaching fundamental skills; it is a poor platform for training fighting skills.
This conclusion, while a logically true and reasonable answer, is based upon the general premise of your definition above. Does everybody mean what Terence means above when talking about ‘chi sau’?