Internal arts and self defense against blade weapons.

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
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Re: Hehe

Originally posted by dz
[B]Please write more :slight_smile: Or if you prefer, let’s take it over e-mail.

I’ll send your “Hi” to P and M next time I see them. [/B]

Kewl. I asked because the thread is apparently very old. Hadn’t noticed that before and my response might not be relevant anymore.
Anyhoo, if you haven’t already, read this first.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifefighting.html

Agree with his points or not, Marc will give you a few things to consider. For the record, I agree with a most that he says but there are a few of his points I would like to emphasize.

First of all, there is a huge gap between training and the reality of a knife attack. Chances are, you won’t see the knife until it is coming at you, or worse. If you do see it, it still won’t be the same as in the school. Having somebody in front of you who is determined to kill you is not something to be taken lightly. You can’t prepare for it in training.

Second, you don’t have the luxury of many mistakes. Yes, some people have defended themselves against knife attacks and got away unharmed. But how many others suffered (permanent) injuries after surviving the attack? At any rate, who’d want to depend on the clumsyness of the attacker to make it out in one piece? The knife has the potential to be lethal with just one (even light) touch. As such, you cannot deal with it in the same way as unarmed combat.

Third, I love FMA and Indonesian ones. They are awesome. But they have also been misrepresented of late. They have their strong and weak points, just like any other martial art. Just because they focus on weaponwork does not mean you become invulnerable to a blade down your gut. If you look at military and Western blade training, you will see lots of very strong systems too. Systems that cover things you usually don’t find in the Oriental ones.

All that said, yes, tai chi chuan has plenty of techniques/concepts that can work against a knife attack. The trick is recognizing how you need to adapt them for the specifics of the knife when compared to unarmed attacks. There’s no easy answers there. Lots of skullsweat and tons more training.

To quote a wise man “I could be deadwrong too.”

Chimpy

22

Interesting

I’ve always found Mr Young’s stuff interesting. I will certainly look more into that - thanks!

As for the FMA - Dan did once speak quite highly about a Swede called Johan Skålberg (the president for the IKAEF - http://www.ikaef.com/english/).

Gotta go, speak to you later!

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Don’t get me wrong, I love South-East Asian arts. I study them and am always amazed at how rich and wonderful they are. There’s also tons of excellent teachers out there. My point is that however great, these styles are, they offer no guarantees. There are none.
If anything, that is what I like least about the FMA and Indo martial arts community. I’ve seen too many practitioners with bad attitudes because they feel their art is superior due to the emphasis on weapons.

Chimpy

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aikido and tai chi

If memory serves, Aikido was developed primarily as a defense agains sword by unarmed defenders. Of the non CMA, it’s fair to say the aikido is the most ‘internal.’ But I never really considered tai chi against knife applications. On an aside, I feel that some of the xingyi dragon applications are akin to what little I know of aikido and I imagine some of the bagua apps to be similar.

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TAiji vs knife: Yup

I would definitely trust Taiji against a knife attack. Even though anything can go wrong, the chances are still there.

one of the principals of training (what I do in Chen Style) is to block on the elbow when executing a defensive move. The levels of Push hands emphasise this and that’s why you do this over and over and over…

Exersise and experience will prevail though, and there’s no substitute for a little exposure to a test:Like someone stated: let your buddy try some at you, someone without martial training.

But Someone like Ren Guang Yi would most certainly not stand down to a knife attack!

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Out of interest, has anyone seen Ren or CXW or any of the top taiji teachers teaching or practicing knife work?

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not Myself, (I live inSouth Africa)

But Ren Guang Yi’s dissiple Shifu Jose Figoroa has shown some great moves.
And I’ve seen video tapes of Shifu Guang Yi Ren showing application.

But hands on I’ve experienced Shifu José’s excelent precision and skill. Never in my life have I experienced such speed and controll, on that I will no doubt place my trust as excelent martial skill!

The most important point in a fight situation is super fast reflex with complete control/presision. And that only comes with time and experience and dedicated training. No 2-week-self-defense course will teach you that!

Is the techniques there? In proper taiji, yes definitely. But not all taiji schools practice martial taiji nowadays, more and more “health taiji” schools appear.

“Today, most people practice Taijiquan to maintain health or cure sickness. For the last fifty years the martial aspects of Taijiquan have been ignored, and the art is now incomplete. Most practitioners no longer understand the martial applications of Taijiquan, or even that it is a martial art.” -Dr Yang Jwing Ming

Does this give a bit of background?

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But was that knife defence work specifically or just the usual application stuff? I ask because in all my years in taiji, other than Erle Montaigue (who some would question anyway, no doubt), I never saw a teacher work specifically or in any great depth on knife defence (or gourd work come to that!)

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yes, well, fake knife but definitely aimed at knife

My Shifu has videos of Shifu Ren doing applications on Stefan(one of his other Dissiples) I think it’s for sale, Don’t know where though, will try to find out for you.

Butt Shifu José definitely showed us many knife applications, although he always start of with his “run-fu” story, meaning don’t do this unless you can’t do run-fu at all.

Yes, many movements in the forms he especially explained as being a knife technique(one of the many) i.e:
White crane spred wings(38 San Shi Ba),
Hidden hand punch(the side step end wide ward off is very effective against knife or weapon attack)

Many movements can be successfully applied, one just need to train them and if your taiji skill is good(martial skill) you will understand the principal of movement, how to move with an apponent and how to make your apponent move like you want to.

If you reach this level (In Chen, and other styles aswell, this level is known as the 4th level of skill) (there are 5 levels of skill-well according to Chen syllabis) you will know how to apply anything, it sounds stupid, but the forms and training drills, Silk reeling etc are guides to help one understand the principals of movement, and then one can addapt to any situation. Ask any great master, they just react naturally.

The aim is to be natural. To be able to adapt. And to think clear in a fraction of a second.

30

I have yet to read unless I missed a post how you train with your internal style to defend against a bladed attack?

Again if your style does not work with the offensive aspects of blade combatives in some degree or form you really are not going to get as deep as training in close quarter knife defense as a style which revolves around that range of combat.

To say that you trust your taji or that their are as many answers in gung fu as their are in the fma’s in regards to knife defense does not seem to really hold up to me as I have yet to see anybody ever post anything of depth from that perspective who just does a strict internal style without crossbreeding.

The problem with countering a knife attack is that some convential techniques would actually be the worst counter-measures against a blade. Edged weapons cut on both the thrust and on the retraction which means almost any contact between knife and body can open up a wound channel.

By working with the blade in a offensive fashion you learn about your own presentation of vulnerable points and how lightening fast and non-zombie like those movements really come in.

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Chimpy,
I hear ya, bad attitude is conter-productive in all aspects of MA. You’re truly right about the no-guarantee - not even guns can guarantee you a no-harm outcome of a physical confrontation. I’d like to see TCC as my main system, though I wouldn’t mind learning from other styles as well as complement where it’s suitable. Do you practise knife defense and from what system(s) do you learn? I presume Mr. Young and Mr. Orlando are a couple of your influences. :slight_smile:

Black Jack wrote:
> I have yet to read unless I missed a post how you train
> with your internal style to defend against a bladed attack?

Me too :smiley: But then again, why would anyone want to share their good stuff for free on the internet? That’s why I was surprised when someone revived this old thread.

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Originally posted by Black Jack
[B]I have yet to read unless I missed a post how you train with your internal style to defend against a bladed attack?

The problem with countering a knife attack is that some convential techniques would actually be the worst counter-measures against a blade.

By working with the blade in a offensive fashion you learn about your own presentation of vulnerable points and how lightening fast and non-zombie like those movements really come in. [/B]

Tai chi has both sword and sabre techniques. Plenty of ground to cover regarding edged weapons in both offense and defense.

Like I said before, you need to adapt your training and techniques to the situation at hand. A sword is not a knife and vice versa. A kerambit is not a Bowie is not a golok. You need to understand the differences and adapt accordingly. It is so in F/Indo-MAs and it is no different in tai chi. There are no superior arts. Each has strong and weak points regarding (un)armed fighting. And people are different too. But it’s surprising sometimes to see the similarities between those arts on a conceptual level.

Chimpy

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Originally posted by dz
[B] I’d like to see TCC as my main system, though I wouldn’t mind learning from other styles as well as complement where it’s suitable. Do you practise knife defense and from what system(s) do you learn? I presume Mr. Young and Mr. Orlando are a couple of your influences. :slight_smile:

But then again, why would anyone want to share their good stuff for free on the internet? That’s why I was surprised when someone revived this old thread. [/B]

TCC is a complete system. The tools you need are there and you are very free to experiment with them. Understanding them and being able to use them adequately in different situations is an entirely different matter. That takes the training and skullsweat I mentioned before. I train in other systems because for one thing, it’s my job. Also, I love to train so I do whatever I can get somebody to teach me. More below.

Dan and I talked a bit when I was in your neck of the woods. One of the things discussed was the need to look at other styles and arts if you want to keep progressing. It’s not just about techniques, but about understanding how things work and how you can learn your own art better by exchanging it with people from another art.
This is not uncommon in scientific communities. When great scientists from different disciplines (medecin, physics, math, etc.) come together and tackle a problem they sometimes form what is called a “great group”. Alone, each person is powerful in his own field. Together, they yield much more results by offering eachother a different view/aproach/way of thinking unknown or underemphasized in the other ones discipline. The Manhattan Project was an example of this. We all know what that produced.

Marc, Bob and a ton of others are great influences on what I do, both with weapons and without. Not really for the techniques they show but for the knowledge and understanding they teach me. Learning from them or studying another art improves my understanding of tai chi immensly.

As for showing stuff, how can I show a technique on an online forum? :smiley:
Seriously, try this: Combine 7 star step and the defensive parts of 4 directions in as many different variations as you can imagine. Then, see how you can use all that against a thrusting knife attack to your abdomen. But only add arm movements at the end. Experiment with footwork and body evasion first. The arms come last. Pay particular attention to weight distribution; it’s the key to make it work.
You might be surprised at how interesting it can get. :smiley:

Chimpy

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Hey, thanks Chimpy - interesting points! Maybe you can show us some stuff in October? One more question, what do you think about groundfighting from a TCC (self defense, not ring fighting) point of view?

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Originally posted by dz
Hey, thanks Chimpy - interesting points! Maybe you can show us some stuff in October? One more question, what do you think about groundfighting from a TCC (self defense, not ring fighting) point of view?

No prob. Have fun with it. :slight_smile: Remind me in October and we can do some of it then.

Groundfighting for SD sucks whatever the point of view. Too many things can go wrong. I try to avoid going to the ground alltogether if I can. If I’m taken there, I try to get up ASAP. As a sport it’s great and you can learn some excellent things from it, but as a primary SD strategy, I’d say it’s very dangerous.

A dear friend of mine once got seriously stomped because he went to the ground on the street. Another friend routinely makes people fall to the ground when he fights. Once there, he deals out the serious pain. All the rest before that is just playing nice.

Groundwork is just another range you need to know about. It’s no more difficult than standing upright and fighting long-medium-close range. Just different. For SD, it has very limited application IMO.

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> [..] but as a primary SD strategy, I’d say it’s very dangerous.

Yeah, especially if we combine this with the possibility of knives.

Do you do any specific training for the “getting up ASAP” part (I would like to add “… and doing as much damage as possible on the way”)?

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It’s not the same. To say that a system which only has elements of one study in its curriculum is the same as a system which makes a large part of those elements its basic core is something I don’t agree with.

I practice fma and ima and am a fan of blade work and theory in both the south-east asian and western context.

To make it more of a direct question as it was still not answered I will ask you since you posted. How do you train for offensive based knife useage?

What basic fundamentals does your style instill in direct knive/blade training? What kind of primary and secondary vital templates or angles of attack do you use? How does it address defense rythem and movement? Elements of range? What about personal carry systems? Grip Preference? Stance? Execution of techniques? Training aids and drills? Methods of Entry/Deception? Do you use Tueller’s 21 foot rule as a judgement of distance in defense?

Give specific info.

38

Greetings..

At the risk of sounding too philosophical, Tai Chi is inundated with practical blade defenses.. Yeilding and absorbing is akin to the opponent trying to cut water, the sister art of Chin Na is applied at the maximum extension of the blade wielder’s strike.. I, personally, teach knife defenses from a perspective of Tai Chi and Chin Na quite effectively for standard street application… BUT, a well trained Indo or Filipino will usually turn you into cut-bait..

My partner teaches blades, JKD, sticks, shoot-fighting, NHB, etc.. the hard stuff.. i teach the soft stuff, Tai Chi, Chin Na, QiGong.. we cross-train and use each other and our students to evaluate the overall effectiveness of our respective arts, Blades in well trained hands should be avoided (trust me).. blades in the hands of amatures are no real problem..

Be well..

39

Very good Post TaiChiBob,

Yes, I would say that when you are in a situation of having to defend yourself against a knife attack you must already have done all you could to not be in that situation, meaning you are now literally defending for your life. In this situation anyone who has any martial training is already better of than someone with none, meaning your reflexes should be better and you panic less.

To come to Black Jack’s question, (stating direct) I would say (I’m thinking what comes to mind):
_ When implementing defensive techniques, focus on simultanious stepping out of direction of attack (when attacker uses frontal attack) with blocking on elbow to avoid contact with knife. Grabs and Chin Na should only be attempted when you are safely out of the attackers comfort area.
_ Techniques like trapping hands and sidesteps would be the safest to “line the attacker up” for your attack or Chin Na.
_ Mostly avoid getting close while the attacker still has control of the weapon, and do not try to kick the knife out of his hands: The first reaction would be to turn the blade towards your foot because he will cover for his face with other hand.

This is just what I think, would like to hear some comments. Mostly If you are facing a skilled knife fighter, your chances are better than none. I cant really say anything for certain, haven’t been in that situation

40

Originally posted by Black Jack
[B]It’s not the same.

To make it more of a direct question as it was still not answered I will ask you since you posted. How do you train for offensive based knife useage?

What basic fundamentals does your style instill in direct knive/blade training? What kind of primary and secondary vital templates or angles of attack do you use? How does it address defense rythem and movement? Elements of range? What about personal carry systems? Grip Preference? Stance? Execution of techniques? Training aids and drills? Methods of Entry/Deception? Do you use Tueller’s 21 foot rule as a judgement of distance in defense?

Give specific info. [/B]

First of all, if you still feel it’s not the same, then we’ll have to agree to disagree. No point of going further. Which leads us to the second part of your post.
I gave you a specific response in a post to dz regarding seven stars and four directions training. It’s just one example, though. But would answering any of your other “questions” really change your mind? Since you already stated it is not the same. Quite frankly, the tone of your post makes me feel I can’t change your mind however hard I try. What would you accept as proof you being wrong?