I would hope my intention is a calm reservoir, manifested by finding the fastest resistance free channel to my opponent. Or another way, my fists are iron balls to a magnet target.
In practice, my intent is usually too obvious, leading to lots of flailing around.
In practise when I’ve needed it, I’ve found it to more like my ideal, calm, a choosing shots. However, I think this is more my character than my training…! :eek:
I like Ten Tigers’s answer too. If I were to analyse intention, that would probably come close. I prefer to save it as the pool though!!! If I analyse, I can’t fight.
As for aggression, that’s just a different substance in my pool…! It can taint the supply forever though.
Hey, while we are on the subject of intention. What’s the difference between intention and pushing?
Originally posted by S.Teebas
Hey, while we are on the subject of intention. What’s the difference between intention and pushing?
Intention is a will setting of mind.
pushing is an act to realized what the will setting.
remember bruce lees analogy of water behind a dam?
does the water push at the dam?
does it ‘intend’ to break through?
certainly there are forces acting on it such as gravity, friction, resistance and so on. But essentially the water just is. Thinking nothing, intending nothing, following its nature.
when a gap in the dam appears the water pours through, it did not gain any intention at this point. it certainly does not gain killer instinct or agression.
when mr lee said ‘be like water’ did he perhaps mean - have no intention? simply be yourself, follow your essential nature of wing chun. it is a direct punching along the centreline. when you are wing chun there is no need of intention. Intention is once again another definition of an indefinable.
so dont train intention, train wing chun, perhaps why beginners appear to have less intention, they have less wing chun.
this reasoning may be wrong entirely, but allow the possibility of thinking outside the box.
sometimes i see intention as magnetic. my hands natural position lies on opponents chest or face, there is no intention to strike, the opposite is true(r) i have to hold back, pull against the natural magnetism of the opposition.
the deer catches the eye of the hunter
without intention he strikes
hunters hunt, that is their essential nature
yet it is the deer that has caught the hunter.
Originally posted by S.Teebas
Hey, while we are on the subject of intention. What’s the difference between intention and pushing?
if intent is like water flowing through a hose, pushing or using brute muscle strength is like putting rocks inside the hose - water does not flow smoothly.
Anerlich
Again intention and controlled aggression are two different things I think you’re getting confused.
Controlled agression is almost a hypocritical anaolgy when you think of it, in fact definitely an oxymoron at least.
Intent is like a single pointed direct of pure willed awreness onto a subject/object. Once presence totally reaches and mixes with it. Agression can be directed towards someone, but intention is done without emotion and in that end it is like water, in that it can change fluidly if needs to be depeding on the nature of change that the Tao is.
Agression may temporarily make the body feel strong, but it always makes the mind weak. People who are agressive for a lifestyle are ultimately weakened people, who are unbalanced.
I think you’re getting confused.
You are in no position to judge, and that’s just your opinion.
My opinion: you may find this profound
but intention is done without emotion and in that end it is like water, in that it can change fluidly if needs to be depeding on the nature of change that the Tao is.
but to me its just meaningless pseudo Zen doublespeak. I’ve heard that sort of stuff from the best and they didn’t convince me of anything either.
Actually I think you are confusing aggression with emotions such as anger. Aggression is behaviour rather than mental state. Mostly to do with attacking, invasion, hostility, etc. it is true, but we are discussing a combat art here, which is fundamentally about damaging or (at least temporarily) incapacitating people. I think it is possible to be aggressive without the emotions involved, which I regard as one form of intention.
People who are agressive for a lifestyle are ultimately weakened people, who are unbalanced.
That’s quite a generalisation, which I’m not sure would stand up to empirical observation. And who said anything about aggression for a lifestyle? We’re discussing combat or sportfighting here, events of limited duration, not a permanent attitude. If Mike Tyson exemplifies what you are talking about, I guess I agree. Bu there are plenty who can be aggressive in the ring or on the football field or hockey rink and not carry it over into the rest of their lives. We hear of “aggressive businessmen” or “aggressive surfers”, often in approving tones, and they don’t always go home and beat up their families or try to annex small European countries.
Aggression is not a dirty word.
anerlich
Aggression is not a dirty word
well put infact those that often visit the ‘‘Aggression’’ dark side are the calmest most centered biengs you will come across they have been honest with that part of human nature and thus have a more controlled and channeled response the the guy that sits under the water fall and just thinks about it.
all warriors who have fought life and death struggles , have felt the full gambit of human emotion , the difference is they come to grips with it .
intent / rage / fear / passion / hatred and so on all part of the animal in us
you can run from it , talk your way around it , try and pray it away but in the end you must meet it and learn to accept and deal with it on a very basic level ,
then you are really being honest with yourself , since you get to spend time with your core self at it’s most pure .
until then your just fooling yourself until something really bad comes along and brings it out of you and if you have never been there before it might take you over .
but for most of us god willing we will never have to face that reality and we can just meditate on it:D
Ernie…
Ernie,
I’ve heard similar things from Marc McYoung (sp?) about learning to “unleash” the beast when need be. He also advocates learning how to deal with this side of our selves. At one point on a discussion email list many years ago, he was thinking about broaching this subject in more detail but had reservations about people making sure they understood what they were getting into.
I think for some of us (myself included) that is a scary place to go as the feeling is that one would be “out of control” and that may not be a good thing in terms of then being able to control that on other occasions when you face day to day anger or stress at some situation where “going medievel on someone” might not be prudent.
In some senses that is the extreme area some go to when fighting. I wonder if there is a middle ground in terms of a “street fighters” mindset of aggression.
What do you think?
planet wing chun
In some senses that is the extreme area some go to when fighting. I wonder if there is a middle ground in terms of a “street fighters” mindset of aggression.
What do you think?
well i don’t see it as extreme just being honest with your nature
i have been through quite a few drills and situations which cultivate this ‘’ killer instinct ‘’
and your right most don’t want to train that aspect , there are many internal walls you have to go though .
i was first introduced ‘’ or should i say became aware ‘’ of this emotional wall in a seminar with david peterson , we dove into them mentality of a street fighter , stradagies ways to mentally disarm some one , getting mentally disarmed and randomly violently attacked be it on physical , verbal , or psycological level.
later i worked with a jkd friend of mine who is a ex marine and who helps train navy seals and he took me through a ton of mental conditioning drills , stress overload drills , and pyscological drills .
there was a ot off pain and blood with this guy he really broke me down and explored that mental ‘’ dark side ‘’
then you learn to recognize that life throws situations at you all the time were you have to tap into that survival instinct
for example a few years ago i fell off a cliff while mountain bike rideing , i got folded in half on impact sheered 3 vertabre in my lower back ,broke a few ribs and twisted my ankle .
but i still had 5 miles and a few thousand feet down the mountain to get out .
had to deal with alot of emotion and pain and become very intent on surviving.
i remember about half way down i had to cross a river while using my bike as a crutch/anchor i fell again and a large branch on the shore line punctured a hole in my back . man i thought i couldn’t take anymore i was looking up at the sky bleeding and i just got ****ed , i wasn’t going to go out like that so i cused out everything around me and kept going .
two years later i had a bad fall snow boarding and busted my collar bone in three places it was popping out of my shoulder ‘’ very sick’ and i had to hike down the mountain .
what did i learn ‘’ besides i’m accident prone 
‘’
i became in touch with that very basic primal part of my human nature and i could tap in and will myself to continue
this intent and ability to become very clear with your hole being on one goal for a long period of time , when your weak and in pain , is very similar ‘’ at least in my mind ‘’ to what i felt when i did those stress over load and combat drills
the positive is i gave me a very deep calmness when i face things i’m very hard to rattle , i can become very centered when i put my mind to it , i have also learned to de huminize people they become a thing trying to kill me and thus need to be terminated .
the negitive is you can become very agressive in your everyday life ‘’ not be able to fit into society’’
i remember gary telling me this is a warrior mindset that you only need in time of war but it is un healthy to walk around switched on with that type of intent
over all i’m glad i went though it but i’ll be honest i don’t train at that level anymore but when ever i spar or freestyle in chi sau i play with the trigger in my head just so i can control it and it wont control me
Anerlich
Some of the things you have said are not to be knocked, and I respect your opinion, but like another post which mentions “releasing the beast from within” and its allusions towards bursts of agression, I still don’t see the need for it in my art, as I don’t use it to get the job done. I do understand that any fighter will personalise what they need to acheive their ends, but in internal arts one most certainly doesn’t need it and in fact it negates some of the aspects that are available too.
It’s a shame that you label some of what I said as Pseudo Zen-babble because my master has taught be about Taoism is so intergal to internal arts and I have found myself in real situations where I have had physical conflict (one incident only a week ago in defending my girlfriend one night down town in front of a club) and I know now that if I hadn’t taken the Taoist approach it would of been me down on the floor instead of the two creeps that were there in my place.
Agression didn’t enter into the use of my art that night.
Thanks Ernie
Thanks for the detailed reply. Very useful information. I think each of us has to decide how we are going to approach fighting.
Of course as someone said, “everyone has a plan for a fight until they get hit” – which makes me think that the kind of pressure training you mention has absolute merit. It seems to me that is also what the navy does in training during BUDS for SEAL team candidates. Pushing them to find those few who will continue to push on no matter what.
Then again, those folks are out on the edge in extreme situations. Guess it depends on the kind of lifestyle you are in and the chances of exposure to violence.
Or if you go snowboarding and mountain biking!
I sure hope you don’t do hang gliding–too many good folks have crashed into mountains and houses doing that activity.
I sure hope you don’t do hang gliding–too many good folks have crashed into mountains and houses doing that activity…planet wing chun
ha ha not me ,
i don’t do well in the air learned that the hard way as a kid doing bmx tricks in a pool , rt leg compund fracture:)
yep i’m a mess
Good post, Ernie! I think I can relate to your experience of just trying to be a survivor. My Dad told me that while he was at the “re-educated” camp ran by the Vietnamese commies, some of his camp prisoners while on the field and nobody watching catched some hapless jumping frogs nearby and swallowed them live! This was the only protein they will get for years to come! Honestly I think I can’t do it but who knows… You do the weirdest thing to survive.
Regards,
PH
Ernie!
You are opening a good “box” with your last post!..It is very true that human beings can go to that place where pain ,wounds and whatever happens can be just put aside for survival.
Soldiers have it in their training.Some corps more hard than others but it is still “training” and not real!..The biggest risk there is often to be kicked out of the program.
The pro fighters also will often go to that place.They will endure pain and sometimes risk getting badly hurt but,most of the times ,they only risk losing and pockeying less money!..
On the other hand,the woman who bravely resist a rapist agression and get all bloddied by knifes cuts and still manage to fight her attacker away without any special training. The store clerk who notice his bullet wound only after he manage to neutralise the armed robber who was ready to shoot everybody in the place.The lady in western Canada who ,a few years ago barehandly fought and chased away a cougar who was attacking a child.
There are thousands of stories of this kind.This proves that humans can reach into normally unknown force and energy when there is no other alternatives.
The almost surhuman strengh of mental patients ,I know well, is an other aspect of this subject.
It’s a shame that you label some of what I said as Pseudo Zen-babble because my master has taught be about Taoism is so intergal to internal arts
I don’t have, nor do I need or want, a master.
IMNSHO, masters are for dogs.
I have a couple of instructors who I am also lucky enough to call friends. They regard me as mature enough not to require spiritual guidance, but to be able to determine my own path, and expect me to do so, as a functional human being.
I’ve had the misfortune to meet several “masters”, “spiritual guides” and “adepts” who were frauds quacks and manipulators, though some had MA talent. “If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.”
That has given me an obsession and compulsion about bursting such bubbles whenever I see them, so sorry if I come on a little strong in that regard.
I studied much about Taoism and Buddhism in my youth. A bit later I realised that character and morality have to come from within, not from someone else’s idea of what higher consciousness and spiritual growth are. Not to say that Taoism is rubbish, but there’s more to it than highfalutin quotes about water.
I could tell some war stories too, in which Taoism played no part.
Not exactly in the Christmas spirit I know … sorry.
old j
from your job i know you see what the human animal is cabable of i don’t mean that in a disrespectful towards those that are ill but in a honest observation of what one human can do to another .
it’s a scary thing , when some one no longer cares for there life is incapable of responding to pain.
i have seen it in the streets quite a few times , when people are dopped up or just inraged .
my brother has a similar job as yours and has been bit and thrown by small ladies
he had one lady come at him with a knife of some sort who had never shown a single violent tendency , he had to kick her dead in the chest repedily just to slow her down he still got cut , and fired .
but since we have been children we have had the animal conditioned right out of us with that magic word ‘’ no’’
so in the study of combat i feel you should progressivly expose yourself to those insticts ,
not in a uncontrolled fashion , but in drills that draw it out . but like anything don’t hardcore all the time .
as for injuries i have had a few and seen more when i trained that stuff and left it when it started effect my job and mental well being ,
i would walk down the street and invision taking people out , this was one of the awarness drills , ,makes for a paranoid day:D
paul
dude you will do what it takes to survive it is ingrained , i’m a vegiterien but if my life depended on it canabal city:eek:
Quote:
" i would walk down the street and invision taking people out , this was one of the awarness drills , ,makes for a paranoid day "
Ha!Ha!..Don’t we all do that from times to times?..It is perfectly normal for us: Martial artists. I wonder how many looked at Santa in the shopping center and thought ; “I could take the big guy!” 
Just beware of sumoris in red suits! :eek:
i was recently at disney land and had the uncontrolable desire to tackle mickey
just thought it would be the funniest thing 