agree , though didn’t have time to read it all…I 'm 96 % sure that by exploring land divisions and international relations from way back, certain trends and the trail begins to widen…
and the plot thickens…
more when I have time
I like the clubs story.
As soon as people know how to use hands to fetch food, grab, pinch, pick, he or she must also know how to use them to fight for one reason or another, push, pull, fist punch, palm strike, nail scratches. head bumps, biting, kicks, throw on and on.
All these may predate hu hu ha ha languages to communicate.
If you know how to dance for fun, you may know how to balance and how to fight with your limbs and body.
No need for the westerners or Indians to tell you how to eat, how to dance, how to survive, how to speak, how to worship or HOW TO FIGHT???
Recent evidences showed modern men all came from Africa. So may be Chinese languages and CMA started in Africa then.
Does new born infant know how to stretch its limbs? if so it knows how to punch and kick.
Does a 3 year old know how to push and pull, or he or she needs a western told Indian told Shaolin told here this the way to push?
on the does a three yr old thing…of course, but it’s a tendancy of humanity to forget we can do this jazz, then to learn different techniques to control it most effectively is a different thing all together…
considering africa is adjacent to egypt ( the oldest civilisation in the world), sounds plausible…
I 'm on a little academic tangent here ( and sometimes that method pays and some times not), but it recently in guangzhou / hongkong it has come to my attention that, while they speak cantonese, portugese for the most part, alot of their full and complete statements I ( with my pacific island/ portugese heritage) can understand fluently when for some reason I can only explain as above, it hears like tongan…l’ing ol frequently…but pre-land splits definately hold clues to evoloution and spread of common denominating knowledge…remember…once the earth was a single land mass…when, how and various era - specific circumstance even in areas you just would never suspect, holds many a clue to many a thing on the surface unrelated at all…
Originally posted by Ben Gash
X-warrior, while that history impresses the tourists, it isn’t supported by literary, artistic or archeological records which point to well developed systems of CMA in 1500BC.
Greek Pankration predates 1500 BC and we know the Greeks traveled (what little of) the world back then. Some believe soldiers stayed in China, India and other parts and mixed the Pankration with what was found there and thus martial arts were born.
I just read BL’s post and I have to say, I don’t think I can understand WHAT the heck she’s trying to say. Can anyone translate? 
Originally posted by PHILBERT
Greek Pankration predates 1500 BC and we know the Greeks traveled (what little of) the world back then. Some believe soldiers stayed in China, India and other parts and mixed the Pankration with what was found there and thus martial arts were born.
I’ve never heard that before. I have no information, so I can’t comment but it’s something to consider if anything else correlating crosses my path or I run dry on my current track. currently looking at afghanistan, pakistan , russia and the middle east meets china…
ps.if you don’t understand you just dont…
Well, THAT clears thing up.
Pankration may have settled in the trans-Indus, Bactria (Afghanistan) etc with Hellenistic culture post Alexander the Great. It (Hellenism) certainly influenced the much later evolution of Mahayana Buddhism, which was the Buddhist form that mostly influenced China.
The Chinese had no direct contact with Hellenism, and only a little much later, with Rome in the Second Century AD nearly 500 years later. This was thru Merchant contact from both China and Rome. A single recorded military engagement earlier in 36 BC occurred where 200 Roman Mercenaries, were employed as frontier guards by the Parthian Empire at Tufan. The Chinese overwhelmed them with superior numbers, and the Romans surrendered when their ‘employer’ was cut down.
Greece influenced China thru Mahayana Buddhism, and Greek perspective art.
Indian martial ats that may have influenced Chinese Arts are certainly older than indigenous Chinese arts that developed post this influence, but that says nothing for Chinese Arts that existed prior to this supposed influence. Only a few ‘Chinese’ Arts could definitely be said to have had Prior Indian Influence - these are those that arrived in china via Tibet, in the 19th Century.
Simhanada
Well, it’s all fine and dandy in the end, but it don’t mean lick.
There is only what there is now and what there is now is so far removed from what there was even a few hundred years ago.
I am not certain why people debate these things. TO discuss is one thing but to claim origins over another is just a tad off the mark and a loop that has no meaning.
Originally posted by Kung Lek
I am not certain why people debate these things. TO discuss is one thing but to claim origins over another is just a tad off the mark and a loop that has no meaning.
for myself, it’s because I am accutely aware that my time , and even more specifically my prime, is limited…if I can meld such findings to discover roots and the best place to learn what I’m after ( from the source or with the most efficiency), then I can maximise while my little bones are still upright andmy muscles are doing as they’re told 
Yes. History usually recorded military events. Religions are always freely flowing. However, trade or business precedes both of these 2 events.
The spice, silk, procelain, rug etc.
Culture is always integrating.
If you insist on the Greco-india influence on CMA, wouldn’t it work both ways? What are the Chinese influences on India and the Greek?
Hard to say it is one way street.
If so, Chinese are more acceptable and learning the best from their neighbors.
While the Greek and Indian not bothered to be influenced by Chinese.
Culture is always freely flowing and integrating, even today.
If you insist on the Greco-india influence on CMA, wouldn’t it work both ways? What are the Chinese influences on India and the Greek?
Hard to say it is one way street.
well, you got that right.
For instance, I am a canadian, caucasian of welsh and scottish heritage. I do chinese martial arts because they are most accessible to me over welsh or scottish arts which are virtually non-existant in a classical martial arts sense.
so, there’s some far reaching influence by any standard.
firstly K.are you absolutely sure you don’t have an Irish bone there???..just ran into an irish teacher here and her with teh s brought you to mind…
secondly …chinese influence non- applicable to india???..my information says other wise and additionally, …I think here is where all the info pooled (being such a large transitional land mass between east and west) many eons back and hence popular belief that here in China lays ma s origins…
Originally posted by blooming lotus
[B]I’ve never heard that before. I have no information, so I can’t comment but it’s something to consider if anything else correlating crosses my path or I run dry on my current track. currently looking at afghanistan, pakistan , russia and the middle east meets china…
ps.if you don’t understand you just dont… [/B]
My post wasn’t to agree or disagree with you. In fact I never read yours. I typed Pankration to see if anyone mentioned it, and no one did so I typed my message. Next time you are at your local bookstore in Arizona, take a look and read the first chapter of either of these books:
The second book is in paper back now. Both nice books, especially the first few chapters. After that they are boring. The opening chapter discusses the creation of Pankration and it’s traveling.
Originally posted by blooming lotus
[B]
considering africa is adjacent to egypt [/B]
LOL 
Remember though, to her, Arizona is China.
that’s right…briefing you on everything that’s happening in ma from shaolin to guangzhou, but I’m still in Arizona :rolleyes:
dude…I can’t even get a freakin us visa and I’m secretly shacking there…gueniuses
Originally posted by blooming lotus
that’s right…I’m still in Arizona
Is that adjacent to North America?
so I hear…:rolleyes: