What role did Bodhidharma and Shaolin really have in the evolution of TCMA?
China existed for some 5000 years prior to Tamo’s legendary visit. Chinese Martial Arts predate Tamo by thousands of years. So what was his influence?
My guess and opinion was that the temples were always a center for cultural exchange. Martial arts were being shared. I believe that Tamo introduced Yogic postures, the idea of Chi refinement and development, and the transmission of forms as the dominant training methodology.
Ta Mo transmitted Ch’an to Hui ke. In so doing, he founded the zen school of buddhism and this was his number 1 contribution to shaolin as this practice is one of shaolin’s 3 treasures.
zen serves the martial artist as well because practice of it allows for a quick change of state of mind and an avoidance of the adrenaline dump in a confrontational scenario.
he also brought in the idea that exercise is intrinsic to whole body and whole being training. any exercise. the idea that too much of any one thing does no good was made concrete with ta mo’s introductions to life in the temple.
there are a lot of legends and such, but there are also the very practical aspects of what he brought to bear.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;921280]Ta Mo transmitted Ch’an to Hui ke. In so doing, he founded the zen school of buddhism and this was his number 1 contribution to shaolin as this practice is one of shaolin’s 3 treasures.
zen serves the martial artist as well because practice of it allows for a quick change of state of mind and an avoidance of the adrenaline dump in a confrontational scenario.
he also brought in the idea that exercise is intrinsic to whole body and whole being training. any exercise. the idea that too much of any one thing does no good was made concrete with ta mo’s introductions to life in the temple.
there are a lot of legends and such, but there are also the very practical aspects of what he brought to bear.
:)[/QUOTE]
Hey David,
There’s a lot of people out here today who doubt that Ta Mo even existed…interested in your take regarding this.
BQ
[QUOTE=Baqualin;921283]Hey David,
There’s a lot of people out here today who doubt that Ta Mo even existed…interested in your take regarding this.
BQ[/QUOTE]
It doesn’t matter if he existed or didn’t exist at this point. What remains, still remains!
Same as it doesn’t matter if Jesus existed or not, which there are also a lot of people who think that. But nevertheless, you have a billion+ christians on teh planet.
The matter of his existence is completely aside from what is extant and attributed to him now. In both cases and more.
Hui ke DID exist and is documented. So if he was the actual founder of zen and ta mo was not, then so be it.
George Washington wouldn’t be the first president of the USA if not for a general named Lafayette from France. But you don’t hear too much about him outside of military circles really. Most americans have no idea about the role of the French in winning them their country and their independence from the British. George never cut down a cherry tree either and Christopher Columbus did not discover America.
there’s a lot of wrong perceptions out there. But they don’t take away from the truth, if anything, they serve as a launch point for discovering deeper truths about a subject if the person has the curiousity and open mind to look and to not be lazy in their thinking.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;921285]It doesn’t matter if he existed or didn’t exist at this point. What remains, still remains!
Same as it doesn’t matter if Jesus existed or not, which there are also a lot of people who think that. But nevertheless, you have a billion+ christians on teh planet.
The matter of his existence is completely aside from what is extant and attributed to him now. In both cases and more.
Hui ke DID exist and is documented. So if he was the actual founder of zen and ta mo was not, then so be it.
George Washington wouldn’t be the first president of the USA if not for a general named Lafayette from France. But you don’t hear too much about him outside of military circles really. Most americans have no idea about the role of the French in winning them their country and their independence from the British. George never cut down a cherry tree either and Christopher Columbus did not discover America.
there’s a lot of wrong perceptions out there. But they don’t take away from the truth, if anything, they serve as a launch point for discovering deeper truths about a subject if the person has the curiousity and open mind to look and to not be lazy in their thinking.[/QUOTE]
The philosophy over riding what may or may not be the actual facts?
[QUOTE=Baqualin;921296]The philosophy over riding what may or may not be the actual facts?[/QUOTE]
philosophies in general are built from the experiences of many and for some odd reason, they are attributed to singular persons. So, in a sense, yes. With other aspects, not so much.
Ta mo was a buddhist afterall and was part of the initial foray of mahayana buddhism into china which in and of itself is an interesting history.
Buddhism itself preceded ta mo by about 400 years though, or so it is thought, but he is one of the prevalent figures in Chinese buddhism because of the Ch’an.
A personal opionin that I’m just going to throw out there about the roll of shaolin.
I think shaolin served as a hiding place for alot of ousted military officers of considerable kung fu skill. Regime changes happened, and generals and other loyal officials faces likely execution. Shaolin would be the perfect place to shed your old identity, take up a Buddhist name and disappear. And it was these men who really contributed to the wealth of kung fu at Shaoiln.
[QUOTE=SanHeChuan;921379]A personal opionin that I’m just going to throw out there about the roll of shaolin.
I think shaolin served as a hiding place for alot of ousted military officers of considerable kung fu skill. Regime changes happened, and generals and other loyal officials faces likely execution. Shaolin would be the perfect place to shed your old identity, take up a Buddhist name and disappear. And it was these men who really contributed to the wealth of kung fu at Shaoiln.
Maybe ;)[/QUOTE]
too shaw brothers. not likely although there is a case or two of harboring that occurred in buddhist temples.
I think it’s more likely that Da Mo was attributed as the founding father to increase the prestige of shaolin. This is pretty typical…institutions pick a saint as a sacred, but not literal, founder. Then time marches on and the legend becomes as important as fact, sometimes replacing the facts themselves.
i think this poem describes acurately what shaolin was like
insulting budha
mocking goddess guan yin
carrying vow sword and chan staff, sends menacing cold chill feeling
doesnt read scriiptures ,monk with tatoo all over his body
meat eating wine drinking disciple luzhishen
this poem describe fictional character luzhishen from wutai mountain who was inspired by martial monks from wutai mountain, second most famous after shaolin
[QUOTE=shaolinboxer;921528]I think it’s more likely that Da Mo was attributed as the founding father to increase the prestige of shaolin. This is pretty typical…institutions pick a saint as a sacred, but not literal, founder. Then time marches on and the legend becomes as important as fact, sometimes replacing the facts themselves.[/QUOTE]
Shaolin was already founded and established as a buddhist monastery before TaMo showed up. Story goes that he was denied entrance for 9 years.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;921280]Ta Mo transmitted Ch’an to Hui ke. In so doing, he founded the zen school of buddhism and this was his number 1 contribution to shaolin as this practice is one of shaolin’s 3 treasures.
zen serves the martial artist as well because practice of it allows for a quick change of state of mind and an avoidance of the adrenaline dump in a confrontational scenario.
he also brought in the idea that exercise is intrinsic to whole body and whole being training. any exercise. the idea that too much of any one thing does no good was made concrete with ta mo’s introductions to life in the temple.
there are a lot of legends and such, but there are also the very practical aspects of what he brought to bear.
:)[/QUOTE]
I was going to post. But you just RNC’d the correct.
[QUOTE=bawang;921628]i think this poem describes acurately what shaolin was like
insulting budha
mocking goddess guan yin
carrying vow sword and chan staff, sends menacing cold chill feeling
doesnt read scriiptures ,monk with tatoo all over his body
meat eating wine drinking disciple luzhishen
this poem describe fictional character luzhishen from wutai mountain who was inspired by martial monks from wutai mountain, second most famous after shaolin[/QUOTE]
Luzhishen is also the single most awesome fictional character from Chinese stories.
[QUOTE=bawang;921628]i think this poem describes acurately what shaolin was like
insulting budha
mocking goddess guan yin
carrying vow sword and chan staff, sends menacing cold chill feeling
doesnt read scriiptures ,monk with tatoo all over his body
meat eating wine drinking disciple luzhishen
this poem describe fictional character luzhishen from wutai mountain who was inspired by martial monks from wutai mountain, second most famous after shaolin[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;921644]Shaolin was already founded and established as a buddhist monastery before TaMo showed up. Story goes that he was denied entrance for 9 years.[/QUOTE]
…the story that Ta Mo was denied entrance and subsequently sat in a cave for 9 years until he was admitted is one of the most common legends about him.
There’s a cave in fact not far from the monastery that is said to be the cave where ta mo sat and meditated.
there’s other freaky myths associated with this as well, such as the cutting of the eyelids and the tea bushes that spring forth from them and so on.
Because Ta Mo was also attributed with tea drinking in the monastery in order to maintain mental awareness.
not likely although there is a case or two of harboring that occurred in buddhist temples.