I didn’t title the thread properly-
[QUOTE=GeneChing;921765]Check our archives: Bodhidharma(damo)
You should also examine Meat, Wine, and Fighting Monks: Did Shaolin Monks breach Buddhist Dietary Regulations? by Dr. Meir Shahar[/QUOTE]
I guess what I’m asking is what did Chinese Martial Arts look like before Ta Mo? And, if they were practiced differently, what were those practices?
[QUOTE=MightyB;921784]I guess what I’m asking is what did Chinese Martial Arts look like before Ta Mo? And, if they were practiced differently, what were those practices?[/QUOTE]
Chinese martial arts were around before Ta Mo without question, but for the most part, what they looked like or if they were documented in any formal way at all …well, your guess is as good as mine.
It is known that during the Tang dynasty, approximately 600CE to 900CE, that martial arts were practiced at Shaolin. It’s unknown as to what exactly those arts were.
Military arts of the same period deal mainly with the standard warfare such as mounted, dismounted, short, long, ranged weapons siege works and so on.
According to Meir Shahars’ book regarding the monastery and it’s martial arts, there was a staff manual from the temple dated in the first quarter of the 16th century and touted as an excellent treatise on the use of the staff as a weapon.
I believe it is this manual from which a lot of praise was heaped upon the Shaolin fighting abilities due to the manual being used by generals to train their own forces in the use of quarter staffs on the battle field and the finding that the shaolin techniques were more than effective. Namely double headed techniques.
I would think that Tamo’s biggest influence would be the use of qigong and neigong excercises. The forms he is credited with really have very little to do with anything martial.
I think that alot of the current forms of martial arts practice started towards the end of the yuan dynasty with the red turban uprising which was very influential towards the beginnings of folk martial arts in many provinces. Then all through the ming dynasty there was a long period of prosperity, and so the folk arts were able to flourish and multiply, becoming so diverse that you start to see systems that are amalgamations of other styles such as praying mantis.
Then in the qing dynasty, the manchus banned religious societies from martial arts practice, but allowed the folk martial artists and even the taoists to continue their practice. This led to the dissemination of temple arts down to the regular populace, which is when you start to see the great explosion of modern styles which remain popular even today.
[QUOTE=MightyB;921784]I guess what I’m asking is what did Chinese Martial Arts look like before Ta Mo? And, if they were practiced differently, what were those practices?[/QUOTE]
evolution of kung fu has nothing to do with damo
no one is sure exactly what damo introduced other than chan buddhism
but the physical conditioning exciercises of shaolin includes excercises from indian yoga, both soft “prana” or qi excercises and hard physical excercises
before song dynasty chinese army did jiaoli (headbutt) . two soldier in armor circle each other, then headbutt each other with their pointy helmets
if none of them is knocked out they end up in a wrestling clinch and wrestle
in song dynasty it turned into xiang pu (meaning literally clinch). two people circle each other, jump toward each other into a clinch and wrestle. headbutt was removed.
in late song dynasty population of china balloon + military career turn from elite mercenary wariror class into the lowest class on bottom of society, conscription becomes popular. punching kicking and form drilling makes below average cannon fodder soldiers, but because can train in mass numbers became more efficient and cost effective plus formation fighting needs very little skills
what is known is that the short spears used by shaolin and many other martial art schools are in fact flower spears and cannot be used for actual combat
taken from chinese magazine Martial Soul "wu huen*
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;921753]…the story that Ta Mo was denied entrance and subsequently sat in a cave for 9 years until he was admitted is one of the most common legends about him.
There’s a cave in fact not far from the monastery that is said to be the cave where ta mo sat and meditated.[/QUOTE]
i’m familiar with his stories and teachings, but i have never heard of him being denied entrance until 9 years later.
so i ask again, who tells that story?
Page 9. 10. 11 of “Kung Fu, History, Philosophy, and Technique” By Richard Chow and David Spangler
Thats also how I heard the story, and have read the same in other books.
[QUOTE=LFJ;921846]i’m familiar with his stories and teachings, but i have never heard of him being denied entrance until 9 years later.
so i ask again, who tells that story?[/QUOTE]
You really want to know! 
Seriously though, it is told in a few places. If you went to shaolin and visited the cave, they would tell you there as well. Also, I believe i saw it one the discovery channel, so whoever wrote that show tells it that way as well.
You seem kind of angry about it?
[QUOTE=golden arhat;921684]can you clairfy i dont understand[/QUOTE]
Its a poem about the “Flowery Monk” from the Water Margin
[QUOTE=MightyB;921784]I guess what I’m asking is what did Chinese Martial Arts look like before Ta Mo? And, if they were practiced differently, what were those practices?[/QUOTE]
Bodhidharma had absolutely nothing to do with Chinese martial arts. The Sinew-Changing Classic was erroneously attributed to him in 1624 when it was actually written by a Taoist. However, the idea of him teaching actual martial arts did not come about until 1907 with the publishing of the popular political novel The Travels of Lao Tsan.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;921964]You really want to know!
Seriously though, it is told in a few places. If you went to shaolin and visited the cave, they would tell you there as well. Also, I believe i saw it one the discovery channel, so whoever wrote that show tells it that way as well.
You seem kind of angry about it?[/QUOTE]
no, it just sounds bizarre.
it kind of defeats the purpose of his 9 year sit. it wouldnt have had the same profound effect. it also wouldnt make sense for them to prepare a special room for him and be so hospitable later on. he was a famous master, welcomed over by the emperor even. so i dont see how it would make sense that monks of any temple would deny him entrance. any reason given?
i had just never heard the story being told that way. not by any monk of shaolin nor any master of a chan/zen/seon buddhist tradition.
i’ve heard discovery and other documentary shows make some pretty oddball statements before, mixing up facts and details, so.
[QUOTE=LFJ;921989]no, it just sounds bizarre.
it kind of defeats the purpose of his 9 year sit. it wouldnt have had the same profound effect. it also wouldnt make sense for them to prepare a special room for him and be so hospitable later on. he was a famous master, welcomed over by the emperor even. so i dont see how it would make sense that monks of any temple would deny him entrance. any reason given?
i had just never heard the story being told that way. not by any monk of shaolin nor any master of a chan/zen/seon buddhist tradition.
i’ve heard discovery and other documentary shows make some pretty oddball statements before, mixing up facts and details, so.[/QUOTE]
That’s cool. I don’t think it is counter productive to have that story. I think the story also goes that the emperor who invited him over didn’t care much for him either because he basically gave him the old camel through the eye of the needle parable. 
I think if anything, the story of the rejection, then the sitting, then the eventual acceptance speaks directly about perseverance, diligence and commitment to the way.
David makes a good point about the symbolism of the rejection story (one of several variants I have heard).
I’d like to add that the later honoring of Bodidharma would fit the structure as the monks came to realize that greatness was sitting outside their door eating bitter while they acted inhospitably to a member of the sangha.
LFJ also makes a strong point: Discovery Channel doesn’t vet their “discoveries” very well. They put a lot of nonsense up there… like an hour long program about how space aliens from atlantis built the sphynx.
really, i see absolutely no reason why the shaolinsi sangha at that time would deny bodhidharma entrance. after all, they already had an indian monk as their abbot and another famous one was coming from buddhism’s motherland. of course they would want to hear what he has to say- little did they know.
the way i learned it was that he was hitting the misunderstanding the people studying buddhism in china already had.
at that time buddhist practice was more concerned with ritual and magic, or as the emperor understood “attaining merit”, finding something “holy”. they all studied nikaya buddhism, focusing on accumulation of knowledge through scripture.
so they all wanted to hear what the famous master from the west had to say about truth. what was his great teaching? thats what even the emperor wanted to know when he welcomed him over.
bodhidharma hit that misunderstanding, first in his exchange with the emperor. (saying only four phrases in reply to each of the emperor’s questions: no merit, nothing holy, vast emptiness, dont know- bunch of negation of generally accepted buddhist concepts in china at that time. radical hitting!)
then at shaolin monastery, the monks would surely be eager to welcome another great indian monk. they likely expected more of what buddhabhadra was already teaching them. and they thought more accumulation of knowledge was the key.
again he hit that misunderstanding. without speaking a word he just went to the cave and sat… and sat.. longer than any of the monastics at that time could manage, or imagine.
thus the beginning of chan transmission in china, and the shaolinsi sangha’s “conversion” to the mahayana.
well, still to this day it is all legend and tales.
There is an excellent treatise on Buddhism in China though by Kenneth Chen.
http://www.amazon.com/Buddhism-China-Kenneth-Kuan-Sheng/dp/0691000158/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236890013&sr=1-1
These kinds of scholarly works are much more valuable in understanding the history along with the oral histories as handed down in martial arts schools or among sectarian schools of buddhism in my opinion.
If you sort through it, you can find answers…sort of.
In the end it’s largely moot. Most of the history of Bodidharma’s entry into Shaolinsi is oral, not written, as such it is most certainly subject to distortion. I’ve heard several different stories from several different sources all of which tell a slightly different tale.
What remains unchanging is:
Bodidharma brought Ch’an teachings to China by way of Shaolinsi.
He meditated in a cave for 9 years.
He (most likely) had a big, bushy beard.
He (at the very least) brought a set of exercises to Shaolinsi.. though one memorable story I recall was that after his 9 year medtation his legs withered away to nothing. I doubt this is true.
[QUOTE=LFJ;922916]really, i see absolutely no reason why the shaolinsi sangha at that time would deny bodhidharma entrance. after all, they already had an indian monk as their abbot and another famous one was coming from buddhism’s motherland. of course they would want to hear what he has to say- little did they know.
[/QUOTE]
During the Northern Wei, there were only a few great state monasteries like Shaolin among the thousands of other temples and monasteries. The monks who resided in these official establishments were selected and ordained by Imperial decree and required higher qualifications. Their supervisory clergy was appointed by the Imperial throne and accountable to it. Discipline and rules in the official monasteries tended to be strict. As a rule, a wondering monk would not have been accepted as permanent resident. Visiting wondering monks were allowed to stay in the guest rooms but only for a short time after being first interviewed by the Guest Perfect or one of his assistants. These interviews were done to determine where the visitor was in fact an ordained monk or a layman. Chan probably started out with the wondering yogi types some monks, some not. Furthermore, as pointed out by Buddhist historian, Dr. A.W.Barber, during the "early history of Chan in China . . .many of the Buddhist masters had affiliations with monasteries but often were not members and it was not uncommon for them to stay in nearby huts, coves or caves and not in the monastic compounds.
ghostexorcist wrote: However, the idea of him teaching actual martial arts did not come about until 1907 with the publishing of the popular political novel The Travels of Lao Tsan.
This is not true. There are still a few old masters still around who began their studies in the early 1900’s and who’s teachers studied Shaolin martial arts during the 1800’s. They passed on a very similar version of this legend. At the very least this legend predates the 1800’s/1700’s and most likely earlier.
r.
[QUOTE=r.(shaolin);923476]
This is not true. There are still a few old masters still around who began their in the early 1900’s and who’s teachers studied Shaolin martial arts during the 1800’s. They passed on a very similar version of this legend. At the very least this legend predates the 1800’s/1700’s and most likely earlier.
r.[/QUOTE]
It is true. You are thinking about the Yi Jin Jing (1624), which attributes the qigong exercise to Bodhidharma. The first of two prefaces states after Damo’s death, the monks of Shaolin discovered two qigong manuals written by the Buddhist saint. One manual was lost and the other was supposedly not translated into Chinese from Sanskrit until much later. However, the idea of him teaching specific martial arts did not come about until 1907 with the publication of the previously mentioned political novel.
Although in our tradition includes, Yi Jin Jing () no specific mention is made of Bodhidharma concerning it. The legends of three other sets however do mention Bodhidharma. Although they do not say that he had any hand in developing these, they commemorate him and in that sense connect him to martial arts at Shaolin. These legends were found in documents from our lineage that have been around from the mid 1800’s but probably earlier.
LUOHAN* MA DENG CAO (The Arhat Who Practices How to Mount a Horse)
“When Bodhidharma (Da Mo ) came to Shaolin Si on Songshan Mountain, he noticed that many monks looked emaciated, and had swollen bellies and faces. The first Patriarch taught the monks of Shaolin Si exercises to strengthen their bodies. The younger monks, in particular, followed Bodhidharmas instructions in training Qi. Within six months, those who practiced became much stronger and more energetic. When Bodhidharma was asked to teach more, he replied, Practice twice what I have taught you each day. As a result of this reply, a tradition was began at Shaolin to do exercises at the opening of the door of the training hall (-Chan Tang) when the chief instructor (-Kai Tang - literally “The One that Opens the Class”) enters before classes began. This is called Luohan Kai Men (), which means, Luohan Opens the Door.”
[SIZE=“1”][SIZE=“1”][SIZE=“2”]Note: *Luohan in this case refers to Bodhidharma [/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
CAO FANG HUA * (Grass Visits Flower)
“When Bodhidharma first arrived at Shaolin Monastery the Guest Prefect asked him how he had come. Bodhidharma told him by floating on a blade of grass across the Yangtse River. The old Guest Prefect was suspicious, and so in the presence of other monks asked him with what method he had done this and wished a demonstration. Bodhidharma explained, I am as grass floating. My visit to you is like grass visiting a flower. Grass is symbolic of Buddhism and the flower symbolic of China. The word flower also means an illusion in Buddhism and therefore the statement refers to the enlightenment of China by Buddhism. In order to come to China from India, Bodhidharma had to make the hazardous journey by sea like clouds and water. The trip took three years and the divine beings protected Bodhidharma on his journey. Bodhidharma was a scholarly prince of the priestly caste and trained in the martial arts. Bodhidharma founded a branch of Buddhism that focused on seated meditation at Shaolin Si and is regarded as the first patriarch.”
[SIZE=“1”]* In speaking to one student from the Wugulin, Zhang Qinghe’s lineage did at one time have a set with this name as well.[/SIZE]
LUO JIAO SONG SHAN (Settling at Songshan Mountain)
“When Bodhidharma first arrived from India in the southern capital, he met with Emperor Wu of Liang. The Emperor was an enthusiastic supporter of Buddhism and asked Bodhidharma whether he would like to live in China. After this meeting Bodhidharma journeyed to the capital of the Northern Wei, Luoyang. From there he went to Shaolin Monastery in the Songshan Mountains. At Shaolin Bodhidharma was asked who he was and his reason for coming there. His reply was, “I am grass that has come to visit the flower.” The old Guest Prefect asked, Where are you going? “I plan to stay here, in the Songshan Mountains” was Bodhidharma’s answer.”
r.
[QUOTE=r.(shaolin);923498]Although in our tradition includes, Yi Jin Jing () no specific mention is made of Bodhidharma concerning it. The legends of three other sets however do mention Bodhidharma. Although they do not say that he had any hand in developing these, they commemorate him and in that sense connect him to martial arts at Shaolin. These legends were found in documents from our lineage that have been around from the mid 1800’s but probably earlier.
[…]
r.[/QUOTE]
I have heard of the emperor’s audience and the river-crossing episode before. But have the documents concerning his teaching of boxing to the monks truly been dated to the mid 1800’s? I’ve found that martial lineages tend to claim to have documents that prove a legendary figure has connections to their art (I’m not accusing you of treachery, I’m just generalizing). For instance, practitioners of Eagle Claw fervently claim the Song Dynasty General Yue Fei was the founder of their art and that he had learned martial arts from a monk named Zhou Tong at the Shaolin monastery. However, Yue’s family and state biographies only refer to Zhou Tong teaching the boy archery at his village and Eagle Claw is not mentioned at all. What a lot of people don’t realize is that Yue was not connected to martial arts until the publishing of the Yi Jin Jing. The second preface of the book says Yue gained his legendary strength from learning the exercise from an unnamed Shaolin monk with magic powers. Martial historian Stan Henning (the source of the 1907 material) says the very first style linking itself to Yue is Xingyi and this came about with the publishing of a manual attributed to Dai Longbang in 1750. The manual states Yue learned spearplay from an unnamed master. Yue historically learned spearplay from Chen Guang, but I think this “unnamed master” plays off of the unnamed Shaolin monk from the Yi Jin Jing. Going back to Eagle Claw, I think Zhou’s portrayal as a Shaolin monk also points to the unnamed Shaolin master.
I have also read that some internalists claim Zhou took Yue Fei to meet his friend who was a buddhist hermit. This hermit taught Yue “Emei Dapeng Qigong,” which was named after a magic, demon-quelling bird that sat at the head of Buddha’s throne. This is obviously a reference to Yue’s 17th-18th century folklore biography The Story of Yue Fei. In the novel, the celestial bird Garuda (who sits at the head of Buddha’s throne) is exiled from paradise for killing a celestial bat for (no joke) gassing during Shakyamuni’s sermon. Garuda is reborn as Yue Fei. Years later, Zhou Tong takes Yue to meet his friend who is the abbot of a small Buddhist temple.
I don’t know if you have read it or not, but Meir Shahar’s [I]The Shaolin Monastery /I discusses Bodhidharma’s legendary connections to martial arts in detail. Another books is Brian Kennedy’s Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals: A Historical Survey. What surprises me is that some people on this thread are honestly still claiming Damo taught “exercises” to the monks when this was discredited as far back as the 1920’s by Tang Hao. Shahar shows the monks historically worshiped King Jinnaluo (Vajrapani) as the progenitor of their arts.
I used to believe all of the martial legends floating around, but I’ve found the truth is otherwise with the help of scholarly publications and historical records.
[QUOTE=ghostexorcist;923506]Shahar shows the monks historically worshiped King Jinnaluo (Vajrapani) as the progenitor of their arts.[/QUOTE]
vajrapani bodhisattva in chinese is “jngngshu púsà” ().
jnnàluówáng () in sanskrit is king “kimnara”.
dr. meir shahar writes in this article how the two have been confused.
CAO FANG HUA is a set of line exercises, correct?