http://homepage1.nifty.com/koshifumi/fdc-02a.html
lol.
http://www.e-budostore.com/special.htm
Now we’re still waiting for any examples of this sort of thing in CHINA. Old China, new China, a piece of Chinese artwork…anything.
[QUOTE=omarthefish;706730]http://homepage1.nifty.com/koshifumi/fdc-02a.html
lol.
http://www.e-budostore.com/special.htm
Now we’re still waiting for any examples of this sort of thing in CHINA. Old China, new China, a piece of Chinese artwork…anything.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately I don’t have time to hunt it down. No skin off my back in that I don’t really care to prove it to you anyway. 
There’s no need to.
Most everyone knows your FOS on this subject anyways. It’s your theory.
Can you even say where you head this story or even where you heard that something similar has ever been a traditional piece of Chinese clothing?
I’m not really a fan of using the belts as a form of advancement. I think there can be too many levels and, in many classes, belts are awarded when they probably shouldn’t be.
I think a belt is just a belt. To be honest if a school is going to award them then it should be up to the student in question as to when he feels like he’s ready to advance. Some students would award themselves up to black belt within months without really knowing anything while others may stay at a lower rank even though their skills far exceed many above them.
Personally I like the idea of having a fixed test for everyone…No more than four times a year. That way you could actually guage the progress that you have made over the past three months.
One other thing: Many schools use advancement as a way to make money through testing fees. I think in situations where you actually pay for your test the school is NOT going to fail you unless you screw up bad.
[QUOTE=omarthefish;706738]There’s no need to.
Most everyone knows your FOS on this subject anyways. It’s your theory.
Can you even say where you head this story or even where you heard that something similar has ever been a traditional piece of Chinese clothing?[/QUOTE]
For the record, it’s not my theory. I got it out of a book.
Okay, so I asked an older Chinese gentleman about this today, and he said, that what I’m referring to is called a du-do (sorry I don’t know pinyin), but doo-doh, which means, ‘protect belly’, and it used to be common in villages, but the modern Chinese don’t like it. He said when he was younger he would see people in the villages wearing it.
He said they only use it now for TCM to sometimes put herbs in.
He said there were never sashes or belts for grading in CMA, that they used to wear sometimes a heavy belt like a weight-lifters belt, usually made out of leather for grappling or to protect the back from strain. I think I’ve come across some hung gar people with this on.
[QUOTE=lunghushan;706701]I can express an opinion on here if I want. As for the hernia thing, if you’re getting hernias you must be weak or have bad training.
As for Omar’s thing, modern Chinese may not do this but modern Chinese don’t do a lot of things that Chinese people used to do.
Anyways, in Japan this is called a haramaki. I don’t know the name in Chinese.[/QUOTE]
Just a reminder, I was carrying weight and working on plyometrics. I’m sure at your level you don’t train the way I do. Any type of high impact training or heavy lifting can cause a hernia. Unless you practice Tai Chi;)
Any way none of what I have debated here has anything to do my own preferences. But when it comes to sensiblity rank is sometime neccesary, Think of it from a Military sence. After all Kung Fu is a war art and rank in a neccesity to keep order.
Show me a School that doesn’t have a ranking system and I’l show you a School that can’t pay it’s rent.
narcissism is exactly what make some folks resist authority and a disciplined structure. People like this want to say their part of the team but don’t want to wear the uniform.
I can show you at least one school with no ranking system that pays it’s rent but I do admit that it is in the extreme minority and I still agree with your point.
Lunshan,
I’ll admit up front that I am coming on a bit stronger than your posts merit just because I have seen you to spout off an awfull lot, making really authoritative declaritive statements about stuff you don’t really know about before and in general you have some kind of ax to grind or SOME sort of issues I don’t understand about teachers, schools etc. You don’t seem to like anything and somehow think you are qualified to judge in many areas that you just aren’t. That being said…
A “hong dou” is not like a hakimara beyond some very superficial resemblances but then swimsuits and lingerie are similar too. Doesn’t mean they share a common root. The hong dou has nothing whatsoever to do with covering the belly for some sort of TCM belief. More relevant to your analogy, a hong dou covers the belly AND chest. It’s still worn today by children in the countryside. Little children with no pants on run around with them on. It also, served as a kind of Chinese lingerei for WOMEN as it covers their breasts but leaves the back open. You can see Gong Li looking very sexy in one in “Joudou”. They are generally red and satiny.
Here’s some examples courtesy of google:
Very sexy…
heh. Ironically, most of the examples provided by the Chinese search engine, Baidu.com, don’t even cover the belly:
http://image.baidu.com/i?tn=baiduimage&ct=201326592&lm=-1&cl=2&word=�Ƕ�
Here’s one terrifying example:
Here’s a nicer one:
ooh…better still:
Omar,
That’s not what I’m talking about.
Based upon the arguments that modern sanshou and modern sanda are realistic of CMA, the fact that somebody selling internal herbal formulas without listing the ingredients argues that this is okay by FDA rules (it is not), and numerous other examples, such as you arguing with me about something from Chinese history based upon modern China, and that modern Shaolin is somehow of martial value, I’ve come to the conclusion that there’s no point in talking to any of you anymore.
For the record (I removed the post), I spoke with an older Chinese gentleman who said this was indeed a traditional garment, called a du-do (‘protect belly’), and now the term is also used for a tank top type of garment, but the modern Chinese don’t like wearing it anymore.
He said he used to see people in villages wearing it when he was a kid, but now that it’s only used for traditional Chinese medicine for holding on herbs about the belly. He did say that people in remote villages possibly could still wear it (which would account for the reference in a book I found).
As for the weight belt thing, he said they never used a sash for this, but rather a stout belt usually made of leather. I’ve come across Hung Gar people wearing that.
Dude, it’s not me.There’s no point in you discussing this or any of the other things you post about with anyone. It’s the same on all of your threads. Wether it’s crapping on every MA teacher you ever met, explaining why contracts are bad, Chinese medicine or whatever your current rant is.
And btw, “du dou” does NOT mean “protect belly”. The “du” does in fact mean “belly” but the “dou” just means a “pocket” or a “bag”. You are here trying to remember a conversation with some Chinese guy you had and I am on the other side telling you what it actually means. It’s the same garment. Here’s a pic of the more traditional du dou, not the fasionable lingerei version:
This is a traditional du dou that you might see worn by a young woman in the countryside:
This is another very traditional kind worn by a baby:
This is the basic pattern when not being worn:
And your post above is very representative of why most people around here find you to be an irritating dilletant.
It’s good you retracted the statement (even though you restated it above) because you clearly either misunderstood the old Chinese dude, he misunderstood you or you just don’t remember your conversation clearly enough.
[QUOTE=omarthefish;706783]
It’s good you retracted the statement (even though you restated it above) because you clearly either misunderstood the old Chinese dude, he misunderstood you or you just don’t remember your conversation clearly enough.[/QUOTE]
Dude, I talked to the guy TODAY. He’s from Beijing. He even gave me the Chinese letters written down, which I would transfer to computer except there’s no point in dealing with you anymore.
Dude, I talked to the guy TODAY. He’s from Beijing. He even gave me the Chinese letters written down, which I would transfer to computer except
…there’s no point in dealing with you anymore.
And yet…here you are…
The Chinese “letters” are written down on every single one of the links that I gave you.
[SIZE=“6”][/SIZE]
= tummy
= a pocket, pouch or similarly shaped object.
He told you what it was called and I have provided pictures. Just not very similar to the Japanese thing at all. China just doesn’t seem to have that kind of traditional clothing. You have clearly either misunderstood him or he misunderstood you. Don’t keep flaunting your ignorance on the subject like you always do by trying to argue this point. There is no connection between the hong dou and “yao dai”, or traditional Chinese belt. Completely different items worn for completely different reasons. You’re arguing from “this dude told me…” and I am arguing from “Oh yeah, I know what that is from personal experience. No. Not what you’re thinking of.” I even provided pictures of both the traditional kind worn by women, the kind worn by babies and the new fasion version that “everyone’s wearing these days”.
NONE of them serve as a belt of to keep anything warm or are worn for health reasons. The belt, as worn by most southern stylists, has been a common article of traditional Chinese clothing for just as long as the du dou. There’s no evidence whatsoever that one came from the other.
You’re just speaking out yer rear end and only arguing because it’s embarrasing to get called on it.
as a device for ranking, they are relevant only relative to the school you are part of.
for support, they afford some support to the lower back if they are the proper size and width and tie.
other than that, not much more to say about them.
It’s interesting to note that many Hung Gar stylists use actual weightlifting belts in their training.
On the use of belts…
It isn’t necessary if the class is small. I can see a Sifu using colored sashes, or some other kind of marker, in a large class where students come and go. Since the Sifu would have too many faces to remember he can use belts to indicate what that person is working on. When the Sifu sees that the person should move on he slaps another sash on him (no belt testing). I can see this as a viable solution for dealing with the difficulty of having a large class. Even in this system, it is important for the students to realize that it’s their Gong Fu, not sash color that counts. However, if you are teaching a small group, sash systems aren’t necessary.
yeah my si gung needs them
we have over 300 students at one time so. it might take a bit.
we have 5 senior intructer. 4 sifus and 1 si mo. we getting biggered fast. i know im not using real words
“I have come to realise that the grading system and sashes are really quite irrelevant. Is it just a western thing that we like to be rewarded and to show other people where we stand/a hierarchy in schools?”
It was my understanding that the belt system was developed by Jigoro Kano, founder of Judo. Does anyone know if he did this for the sake of teaching Americans or did he develop it in Japan before introducing Judo to the US.
I’m sure you’ll correct me if my facts are wrong on any of this.
Another thing, if the belt system was created to cater to the American ego, as some of you imply, what do they do in Karate schools in Japan? I’m not 100% sure but I would guess that a Kyokshin school in Japan would have the same ranking system as that in America, since the schools are governed by the same organization. It would seem…and this is just me…that they have a sense of achievement as well. Do Colleges in other countries offer degrees or do students just pay, learn, and leave without getting a diploma?
I don’t think that a blanket statement like “american’s like to be rewarded” makes sense in light of this. It’s kind of like the common belief that all Americans are out of shape…I happen to be in great shape. I think that it’s up to the individual’s mindset how much emphasis they place on rank. You can’t control that. Some people are superficial and some are not. But, the rank system is a necessary evil.
Yes, Jigoro Kano did invent the belt system. After he did this, it was adopted by other Japanese styles. Karate first saw belts, and dogi, when Funakoshi taught in Japan. I sincerely doubt that the colored belt system was invented to feed egos. To be honest, I am not quite sure of why it was invented. I cannot remember where, but I heard that Kano used belts in order to properly match competitors with those of their own skill. If you think about it, belt rankings would also be welcomed by 20th century Japanese militarism.
“I cannot remember where, but I heard that Kano used belts in order to properly match competitors with those of their own skill.”
My guess is something along those lines as well. I don’t think that belt rank in the states really lost meaning until the McDojos started to flourish. Before that, schools were not as widespread and the ones that were around were hard core. The thing that kind of irks me is that people are so quick to point fingers at the west as being the great corruptor of everything. As if all MA teachers in China’s past were “Mr. Miyagi.” They don’t know that they are proudly showing their ignorance. There may not have been belt rank but China certainly had it’s share of unscrupulous MA teachers.
What you mean by that Anthony?
There was some bullshido around. A perfect example of that is “Spirit Boxing”. But historically speaking, Kung Fu was used by people who actually fought in life and death confrontations. Also, the majority of those that used Kung Fu weren’t Imperial military like many would assume. It was quite the opposite actually. Societies with the doctrine of overthrowing the Emperor were filled with Kung Fu practitioners. A mercenary was a common profession for a Kung Fu man. Many Chinese martial artists also wandered around as street performers. It is true that Kung Fu was present in temples. Many martial monks were killers though. Kung Fu was not something that had full social approval. It was a pursuit largely relegated to people not looked upon in a favorable light by the Imperial court.
That’s a big can o’ worms. To sum up TCMA history in a nutshell is impossible. I could tell you that Stanley E. Henning, Charles Holcombe, Dr. William C.C. Hu and Fred Bleicher are good authors if you can find any of their articles on the net. Back when I had time I kept an eye out for the most seemingly well researched sources I could find on anything pertaining to TCMA history.
But to address the point of con artists in TCMA’s past, off the top of my head…“Societies with the doctrine of overthrowing the Emperor were filled with Kung Fu practitioners.”
Alot of these societies preyed upon the illiterate masses. Although they were largely illiterate, they knew folk legends and heroes of novels that were popular at the time (fictional characters). Some instructors actually claimed to be these fictitional characters in order to entice students. Some claimed to have learned from them. Instructors would put on elaborate demos in which they and their students would fake feats of strength and skill (pretending to be impervious to swords, guns, etc)…again, to lure students. These types of cons got students killed. Now, granted, I’m talking about a specific time and place. TCMA history is long and China’s a big place.
“Many martial monks were killers though.”
Althought it’s not the point, there were martial monks in Japan and throughout Europe as well. Don’t you think that monks killed people during the crusades.
Other point’s to consider regarding TCMA history are:
TCMA and theater go back to the time before Christ. Fact and fiction were constantly interchanged.
How Chinese martial artists fought is poorly documented and it is believed that they fought like regular soldiers.
Every time I re-read and old book or article of mine, I learn something new. I don’t want to get too much off the point which was that too many people seem to have a comic-book notion of TCMA’s past which just isn’t factual. Before ten more people jump on this thread and start arguing with me I’ll just refer you (or anyone else) to the above authors as a good start. I could never go into the kind of detail here that their works go into.