[QUOTE=YungChun;783323]No you are saying that what everyone else does is BS and won’t work, implying that only what you do, whatever that is, WILL WORK.. So show us!
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It is because I don’t believe you. It’s nothing personal, but anyone can say “oh, I can make such and such work” or “I’ve had a zillion street fights” or whatever. These are empty claims. I can say that the elbow escape works. You don’t need to take my word for it or trust my theory, you can find all kinds of videos of people using it in fighting, you can go to a BJJ school and see it done in fighting for yourself – because it works there is all kinds of evidence of it working. When it is true, the evidence will exist, and anyone can see it. When it doesn’t exist, . . .
My opinion on the “jong sao” (which is that it is not a fighting posture, but an action) is based on my experience, from seeing what other WCK people can really do when they fight, and from seeing what really good fighters can do if you give them an opening. And anyone can see it for themselves – just go spar at 100% with some people with proven, good standup skills (like at a boxing or MMA gym). If you leave your arm out there, you will see the results for yourself.
I know what works and what has worked on the folks I have sparred with.. You say that’s meaningless because you don’t think it will work against the folks you fight… And that we must show you it will work against folks you fight..
What do you mean by “it worked”? That you were able to do it? So was the kid in the video. Did it make any difference in the video? No. He would have done better - been less open to the shoot, better able to defend the shoot, etc. for example - by keeping his arm back. His punch would have more power. He’d be better covered with his arm back, and better able to defend himself (which he would see if the other guy had had good punching skills).
As I said, lot of people do things in what they call “sparring”, particularly with others in their same group, doing the same things, with the same poor habits, poor skills, etc. This is the problem. You can’t learn what are and are not good fighting habits by working with poorly skilled people. Go to a really good boxing gym, one that has produced high level boxers, show them your “guard”, and ask them – after all, they are experienced fighters – about what they think of it, about the strenghts and weaknesses of it. Then ask them to show you why it is a bad idea. They’ll be glad to.
So say we show you something that works against the people you fight and then you begin using it and it works on the folks you fight.. Then Chuck Liddel gets on the board and tells you that what you are doing is a load of BS because it would never work against the folks that he fights with… And on and on…
Solid stuff will work at any level. Obviously a person needs to be at that level in their skill/performance ability, but crap can and does work against poorly skilled people (crap works against crap) but it won’t work against good people. For example, the elbow escape – it works from white belt through black belt, works in MMA competition, works on the street, etc. I may not be able to pull it off against a BB, but someone (another BB) can! A good sign of crap is that no one can pull it off against good people.
I measure my success fighting and sparring against myself.. If I get better then I have achieved something.. Others who work security may have lived a little longer due to their skills and yet again this means nothing and is BS unless they post a video of themselves fighting someone you specify..
You can only measure your progress in fighting (developing fighting skills) by fighting with better and better people.
So what’s your point?
If you can’t use your WCK to whip Tito Ortiz’s butt then I think you suck and have your head up your butt…
My point is that if you’ve spent years or decades, training something that you can’t make work against someone with decent fighting skills, then something is wrong, very very, wrong. And if you beleive it is good, then the evidence of it working against good people should be easy to find or produce.
The point is that YOU are the one with the audacity and presumption to tell everyone one what they do is BS.. So you know better.. So I say PROVE YOU KNOW BETTER AND SHOW US!!! If you can’t show us then I say you are full of schit..
I can very easily prove I know better. Go visit a good MMA gym and spar with them at 100% and tape it. There’s your proof. You’ll see that what you train to do, what you talk about doing, you won’t be able to do. See, I can show you. You just don’t want to see.
If I showed what I can do, you’d just say, “OK, maybe he can do that, but it doesn’t mean what I do is wrong.” And that would be exactly right. My doing something else doesn’t prove what you do is wrong. The only way for you to know about what you do is to see for yourself. But sparring (light sparring) with poorly skilled people won’t show it to you.
You think occupying the line, starting on the line is useless… If you don’t start on the line then you must move to the line.. This allows the opponent to take the line first.. Once that happens you are playing catch up in terms of occupying the line… There is no problem starting on the line if you are filling space with structure but I don’t think you use any of these things, from the most basic to the most complex in the method..
This is not how fighting really works. You’d be much better off to stop thinking in terms of lines. You’d be much better off thinking in terms of are my hands in a place to do the things I will need them to do. Holding an extended arm out there will not permit you to do the things you will find that you really need to do in fighting.
You probably look like a half assed kick boxer… And btw many of the ‘proven’ methods taught in boxing are only viable because they have GIANT gloves on… Many of the moves used in boxing become next to useless when you are bare fisted, such as taking hits on gloves, catching punches–go take your fist, put it on your head and let someone hit you…and see how you feel..
I don’t think you know much about boxing either. Boxing skills work on the street, in the gym, where ever. The tactics – how you use those skills – change based on the situation.
The reason the positions in WCK are not like those used in boxing is because absorbing shots on your hands, that are placed next to your face is not functional without those big old pads on…in fact its pretty stupid. Look at the positions used in the old days of bare fisted boxing and whoaaaaa we see guys with and extended guard… But HEY they didn’t fight those bad boys you do so…
The hands are up for protection, yes – and it does work on the street, btw – but also to facilitate body mechanics, close off openings, find angles, etc. People did do lots of thigns in the good old days, not because they were better but becaue they hadn’t learned better yet.
Spar with those big old gloves on and you won’t be able to use the small spaces WCK was designed to use, you will loose dexterity in your hands, you will have no structure to speak of using some half assed peek-a-boo guard and rely on your gloves to absorb blows… This kind of stuff completely leaves behind the method of WCK..
How do you know what “WCK was designed for”? How do you even know it was designed in the first place? More theory.
Go spar some really good boxers without gloves and test your theory. When you wake up, have them tell you what happened. 
Where is the WCK in your WCK?
Even the question reveals you don’t get it. Who would ask “where is the boxing in your boxing”? If you are using the tools/skills of the method (in question) in fighting, you are doing it, either boxing or WCK. Your level, your skill, your understanding, depend upon the level you can do it. Does really bad boxing work? Sure, it can. Against really bad people. How do you know it is good boxing? Because it works against really good people.
Moreover you failed to provide the location of your school, if you even have one, so that folks can come check you out.. You did not appear at the sparring event which, once and for all would clear up the question of walking the walk, and you refuse to show us the RIGHT way which only you claim to ‘understand’ because of your mythical experience..
Only listen to those who can walk the walk yet we have no evidence that you have learned to crawl with WCK let alone walk
I live in St. Louis and I’m in the book. I don’t have a “school”; we have a small group of guys that train WCK together. And some of us crosstrain too. If you want to visit, you’re welcome. I’ve had a few visitors over the years.
thats why I know what Im talking about when I say the seung ma toi ma drill will help…it is the point in time relative to aguy moving on you , it works , its mechanics trained in motion [chisao] with a partner over and over …not sticky hands …striking hands .