Anyone ever find out what the 11 forms were?
I`m trying to get you the list.
[QUOTE=Hua Lin Laoshi;371580]Joe Mantis
What I haven’t seen is a Big Open Gate to go with Little Open Gate.[/QUOTE]
Big Open Gate… the mind reels! 
The list…
I saw about ten years ago had forms ( available on video) in the ranges of 400+.
I do not know if these forms or videos are still available or are being taught . GM Chan Pui has a lot of material!!
I personally have over 150 forms in my arsenal from various sources , mostly all from SD( 100+).
This is sort of steering into a slightly different direction. But it is sort of relevant.
In addition to which were the original forms, does anyone have any further info on MC’s training? Mainly, where did the southern stuff come from? I originally thought he learned first a 5 families type system then later moved to mantis but it seems that was incorrect.
I know there is some southern stuff there. The leopard set…and 18 elbows and 36 hands have a number of combinations which are also found in Lau gar set and Gung gee (slightly modified but its easily identified).
Is there any info on Tan tui mantis prior LKS and wah lum?
Hi SoCo KungFu,
I am not a wah lum man, though I remember reading a martial arts magazine of of the UK that featured an article on Grandmaster Chan. He said the before Lee Kwan Shan came to their village, they did Mok Gar (I am working from memory here). This may explain the use of the heel in the front and side kicks. Mok Gar is known for its heart piercing kicks and tiger tail kicks-- all done with the heel.
mickey
yu shan, sorry I missed your call. Can’t hear the phone when I’m out on the bike. Post the list, you got it.
[QUOTE=tattooedmonk;768071]I saw about ten years ago had forms ( available on video) in the ranges of 400+.
I do not know if these forms or videos are still available or are being taught . GM Chan Pui has a lot of material!![/QUOTE]
Don’t know what you saw but it wasn’t Wah Lum. There aren’t hundreds of forms in WL. I don’t know how many MC knows (or has quan pu for) but not everything he knows is in WL. I think that’s where the mistake comes from, he knows sets from other styles.
[QUOTE=mickey;768391]Hi SoCo KungFu,
I am not a wah lum man, though I remember reading a martial arts magazine of of the UK that featured an article on Grandmaster Chan. He said the before Lee Kwan Shan came to their village, they did Mok Gar (I am working from memory here). This may explain the use of the heel in the front and side kicks. Mok Gar is known for its heart piercing kicks and tiger tail kicks-- all done with the heel.
mickey[/QUOTE]
Mok Gar is his family style and that’s where the Leopard Form originates. LKS came from a Tan Tui family background before learning Mantis in the Wah Lum Temple.
[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;768155]I know there is some southern stuff there. The leopard set…and 18 elbows and 36 hands have a number of combinations which are also found in Lau gar set and Gung gee (slightly modified but its easily identified).
Is there any info on Tan tui mantis prior LKS and wah lum?[/QUOTE]
As I said above, the Leopard Form came from Mok Gar. The first Spear set in the curriculum is from Lau Gar.
well, I hope that I am not breaking any rules here (so I won’t post the names of forms just in case) but my handbook shows a total of 52 forms - hand and weapon - required to reach 6th level. In addition there are at least 13 “advanced” forms listed and I’ve seen and learned a few additional forms that are not on this list. So we’re up to 70 +/- forms.
I am guessing that on top of that there are some strictly for the gifted or the chosen, and of course some forms that might only be passed to Mimi. So we’re up to 100 +/-. but considering MC’s history why would be surprising if he knows a few 100 forms?
C
Yao Sing`s list:
Beng Bu - aka - Big Mantis
Lan Jeet - Lan Jie
Baht Zhao - Ba Zhou
Tam Toy - Tan Tui
Lin Wahn Jurng - Lien Huan Zhang - (continuous palms)
Teet Bay Sow - Tieh Men Suan - Iron Door Bolt aka (Little Mantis)
Dai Fan Che - Da Fan Che
Yat Lo Lin Wahn Tam Toy - Yi Lu Lien Huan Tan Tui - (first route continuous tan tui)
" " " " " " " (second route " " " )
" " " " " " " (third route " " " )
Yau Ling Kuen
Yin Ji Chuen Lum
And we wonder why other styles and arts look down and call kung fu practioners form collecters.
with numbers said in this post like 150 ,400+ 300 how can anyone take our art seriously?
The time it takes to master just one form and all it applications should be enough, but to learn that many moves with no understanding or application is like an egg with no yoke … all you have is an empty shell. No wonder why kung fu in this day and age are being laughed at form the UFC, MMA and the hard core fighters of today.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;768542]And we wonder why other styles and arts look down and call kung fu practioners form collecters.
with numbers said in this post like 150 ,400+ 300 how can anyone take our art seriously?
The time it takes to master just one form and all it applications should be enough, but to learn that many moves with no understanding or application is like an egg with no yoke … all you have is an empty shell. No wonder why kung fu in this day and age are being laughed at form the UFC, MMA and the hard core fighters of today.[/QUOTE]
What a bizarre way to interpret a system’s wealth of history and tradition as a reason to feel ashamed. I’ll match your ‘egg with no yoke’ parable with one of my own: the art does not define the artist. If my student handbook was 47 volumes long and contained thousands of forms developed over hundreds of years, is it safe to make broad assumptions about the practitioners of my style based on that alone? Or could one instead infer that the breadth of material allows one to tailor their knowledge to the techniques that best suit their body style, interests and abilities? I believe I’d prefer the opportunities afforded by a rich system over all of the ‘one size fits all’ offerings. And if I should choose to take the wrong path and become a form collector instead of someone who seeks the deeper meaning hidden within a smaller number of forms, shame on me, but that’s no fault of my system.
There are 2 different conversations going on here - the material that comprises the Wah Lum system and the number of forms that Master Chan knows. Certainly they’re very different things.
Practice! Practice!
- CS
agreed, I simply made a statment. If you have over 400 forms you cant possibly know any of them.
What good is having a quiver full of arrows if you cant draw the bow?
seems lie you wasted a lot of money on nothing
I’m in complete agreement that an individual with 400 forms is, with very few exceptions, very likely to be a master of none. On the other hand, saying that a system shouldn’t be taken seriously because it offers a wide range of ‘stuff’ that can be tailored to individual needs is a pretty big leap imho, and that’s how I interpreted your statement ‘how can anyone take our art seriously’. Apologies if I misunderstood your intent.
No harm, no foul.
- CS
Oh I see , my intention was not to say anything about the system, just that I can see how MMA, UFC and other styles pick on kung fu when people come on the interent and say they have even 50 forms.
That is ridiculous in my opinon. we have only 10 and I am still learning them after 16 years. To learn is not to collect. and when you collect you did not learn.
Their is a guy who teahes in my city that claims to have 8 black belts. How could anyone take this guy seriously? this is the problem with MA today to many of these situations and not enough training…
Im not against someone having a lot of forms. If the person enjoys doing forms more than running everyday…so be it.
If a student from one system has 50 forms and another from another style only has a few from his own style…but neither one has ever stepped into the ring more than one time to prove themselves…what does it matter?
Having 1 or 100 forms does not make a peson a good fighter. Even if a guy knows the random apps out of his 3 forms…who says they are good techniques or he can apply them?
Can somone give me an example of more than one or two people from seven star, eight step…etc who are fighting mma or ufc style fighting that has been a winner?
You can just list one if you like.
They are not laughing at the chinese martial arts because wah lum has 100 forms
They are laughing because they know if a traditionally trained chinese martial artists steps in the ring and fights the way 8 step or other traditional mantis styles fight that the mantis guy will get his ass kicked in a hurry.
Sorry to have to break it down for you all like that.
If someone does not agree I encourage you to get in the ring and make a good name for the mantis community.
Im not saying traditional arts are not good for self defense and the most important thing to stay healthy…but they may not be the best method of fighting out there.
If you want to learn to fight…you have to fight…and fight…and fight.
Im not against someone having a lot of forms. If the person enjoys doing forms more than running everyday…so be it.
I am not against it either, I just think its a waste of time to learn that many forms without true knowledge of the first one.
If a student from one system has 50 forms and another from another style only has a few from his own style…but neither one has ever stepped into the ring more than one time to prove themselves…what does it matter?again a quiver full of arrows without learning how to draw the bow. whats the point?
Having 1 or 100 forms does not make a peson a good fighter. Even if a guy knows the random apps out of his 3 forms…who says they are good techniques or he can apply them?
then why go on to learn more? this is my point
Can somone give me an example of more than one or two people from seven star, eight step…etc who are fighting mma or ufc style fighting that has been a winner?
nope but the street is the other medium.
[B]
They are not laughing at the chinese martial arts because wah lum has 100 forms
They are laughing because they know if a traditionally trained chinese martial artists steps in the ring and fights the way 8 step or other traditional mantis styles fight that the mantis guy will get his ass kicked in a hurry.[/B]
but thier still laughing… and then when they read so and so knows 350 forms
Sorry to have to break it down for you all like that.
no apolgies needed just conversation
[B]
Im not saying traditional arts are not good for self defense and the most important thing to stay healthy…but they may not be the best method of fighting out there.[/B]
true however mantis is incrediably practical and I have used it many times in my years of fighting, bouncing and security. but if you cant use what you have already learned then why would one seek more?
If you want to learn to fight…you have to fight…and fight…and fight.
is this not the basis for martial arts?
want to look good and graceful in empty forms? try Wushu nothing worng with it and some people devote thier life to it but what are they looking to achive?
Last edited by mantid1 : Today at 08:14 PM.
You know… after all these years of studying martial arts (over 20 and counting!), I still laugh when I hear or read someone express the belief that if you don’t routinely beat people up in bars or back alleys, you haven’t proven the validity of your style.
Years ago, I was that guy who was always looking for a reason to be teed off, and I saw the slightest accidental nudge or the look that lasted more than a second to be a challenge - one that, more often than not, I acted on. Then I discovered martial arts. The odd thing, looking back, is that even from the very beginning, the appeal wasn’t to learn newer and better ways to beat people up - it was to channel my misplaced aggression into something more positive. The result? When I knew nothing, I fought constantly. As an experienced martial artist (who has proven himself in both the ring and the alley), I just don’t fight anymore. Can I? Absolutely! But now, I’m not looking for a reason to let fly, and I realize that a bump is just a bump, a look is just a look, and that tough guy in my face in the alley just isn’t enough of a challenge to merit a response. Like the car with an alarm, a confident martial arts says ‘you’ll have better luck elsewhere’ without opening his mouth.
For my friend EarthDragon, another parable: it’s been said that when you study martial arts dilligently for 1 year, you can defeat two men in combat; after 2 years, you can defeat three men. After 10 years… it isn’t an issue, because you don’t fight anymore.
Sorry mantid… I’m not being judgemental, just sharing my philosophy and the benefit of my experience. I hope you find something of value in this novel!
with respect,
- CS
Chop Socki,
Well said my friend. Your point is make very clear on the road of a martial artist.
Here is an excerpt from - http://www.chinahand.com/shaolin/sl_history/slhistory.htm
SHAOLIN CHUAN
As a Martial Art
- Form is a consecutive series of movements linked together to FORM a pattern designed to bring about some change within the practioner.
- Introduces basic martial techniques (strikes, blocks, etc.).
- Begins coordination training.
- Utilizes the body’s External Energy by using techniques rather than internal energy. This is the traditional teaching method prior to learning internal arts.
- Instills an appreciation of martial arts as a life art rather than a destructive art, by causing an awareness of body strengths, weaknesses and limitations.
As a Health Exercise - Introduces the concept of balanced flowing movements.
- Much of the training is dedicated to strengthening muscles and tendons. This is accomplished by extreme movements and abrupt changes in directions (advancing/retreating, sinking/rising, etc.). This training brings about improved agility, balance, flexibility, and will benefit one’s overall health.
- Institutes a daily program of exercise which is cardiovascular in nature.
As a Performance - When you practice you perform.
- Performance is exercise for the Spirit and Mind.
With great sincerity, I would like this thread to continue discussing about the forms of Wah Lum Praying Mantis. In doing so, we can learning more about their lineage.