If you purchase a book teaching in detail many things about wingchun
purchase a well made and correct wooden dummy
purchase a book on how to perform lots of the techniques?
Currently im doing southern praying mantis, but enjoy many of the techniques wingchun has to offer (there are some which are almost exactley the same to my art)
unfortunately because of political reasons, the wingchun instructor in my home town wont accept me as a student because im doing Southern mantis… :rolleyes:
He won’t teach you because you are learning another system? that is lame-
You can learn a lot from books and get good ideas from books, but you its not the same as being shown. The bad thing about books is you might develope bad habbits.
I would say try to find someone who will show you. If all else fails try trading techniques with one of his students.
It might be that your southern mantis challenges his abilities to teach you wing chun. Don’t get me wrong but some sifu’s never truly understand other systems and this may be why he will not teach you. I would hate to teach someone that would continue to challenge my words. It would be dishonest to go behind his back and get info from his students, but that is up to you and your own morals. I would love to get my hand on southern mantis to broaden my own knowledge. But if the Sifu was like that then his students will more than likely be close to the same as far as info sharing. Is there any other schools around? just my thoughts on it! Good luck on your venture.
Lots of wing chun in Perth … You could look for another school.
I can’t imagine learning wing chun from a book. IMHO I learn infinitely more and faster when training with a partner that when training alone. That is the single biggest benefit to my training that a book and solo training could never provide.
Originally posted by Gangsterfist I would say try to find someone who will show you. If all else fails try trading techniques with one of his students.
I’m probably one of his students. I can’t speak for anyone else, but you won’t get any techniques out of me (nor I hope any other students). Sorry :p.
Don’t be too surprised by this. In olden China, one was not encouraged to learn other systems but focus on just one. A lot of it had got to do with loyalty. In addition to not being accepted by a sifu because you were stugying other systems, oftentimes one was kicked out of a kung fu family if he was found stugying in another school, especially rival schools (eg, Wing Chun and Choy Lei Fut).
Remember that in China, kung fu schools were not considered schools, but more like families, and everyone in a family were treated like brothers and sisters. And so, to study another art would have been disrespectful to the teacher, and to accept a student from another school would also have been disrespectful, in this occasion, to the teacher of the other school. In order to go from one school to another, one really had to disassociate oneself from the original school before being accepted to the new one.
Well, perhaps that Wing Chun Sifu is being respectful of your Mantis Sifu? When I moved from my hometown of Chicago to AZ, I requested permission from my first Sifu to train under a new Sifu. I got consent from both Sifus before making my decision.
IMHO kung fu is for everyone not to be passed down to certain people and not to be only for certain races, sexes, and practioners of other styles.
As for trading techniques with other practioners I do it all the time. I once sparred a white crane practioner who was, well way better of a fighter than me. After the match we exchanged ideas and he showed me a few things I could have used against him for future reference. Then I showed him some things about wing chun. Its not like I teach them the forms or anything like that. If they wanted to learn the whole system of wing chun I would tell them to come to class; and they would be most welcome to attend. Now, there are some things we do not discuss outside of class. Our sifu makes that apparent when he teaches us. I respect that and do not discuss certain techniques. However, hording a bunch of basic techniques that joe blow could read from any of the countless wing chun books out there seems silly to me.
There are no secret societies anymore, heck there really isn’t any practical place in todays world for the fighter. If you can teach someone something that will benefit them, then do it. Give a man a fish to feed him for one day, teach him to fish and feed him for life.
Granted, there are always certain people I would not train or trade any information with reguarding martial arts. I am pretty sure we all know what type of people that is.
Just remember that, ancient or not, fool or not, silly or not, wise or not, stupid or not, some things are deeply embedded in individual cultures. The Chinese culture has its characteristics, and so does the American culture, along with all other cultures. Often times in kung fu, these very particular cultural aspects will surface among the traditional stylists.
Right or wrong is immaterial, but just respect the fact that, as you were brought up and taught a certain set of values, well, so were they. You followed a series of principles and values based on the teacher who taught you, and so were they. And if you wished to learn from some of these folks, then you need to respect their values otherwise they will not teach you. And finally, if you think this is hogwash… no problem at all, just go find another teacher. Not everyone was meant to study under traditional stylists, and that too is ok.
NTC–That is what they say but I do not believe it. There were simply far, far too many people, famous or otherwise, training in multiple systems back then. You need only glance at the existence of Choy Lee Fut, Fut Ga, Jow Ga, Lama Pai, Sun Taiji, Tai Shing Pigua, Baguazhang, etc. to see that.
I think those stories are just cautionary tales to protect the rice bowl. In fact, it was not unknown for famous sifu to encourage their students to go out and learn from other famous sifu to round them out (someone to teach them Taiji, or long bridge, or footwork specialties, etc.)
Reneritchie… thanks for the feedback, and I respect your opinion.
Certainly there are lots of teachers out there who encourage cross training, especially here in the US. At the same time, there are a lot of traditional stylists out there who still have that old belief, and I know a lot of them personally. I was born and raised in China, and learned my kung fu there as well, and so I know that these traditions are well and alive there. One does not have to go far… my own teacher, Sifu Ho Kam Ming, is one of them. He definitely would not be a happy camper and would be insulted if one of us were training at another school, Wing Chun or otherwise.
The point in my post was that if one was really interested in training multiple systems, then studying under a very, very traditional teacher with cultural belefs and values may not be the smartest choice. A more open-minded teacher might perhaps be more applicable.
I am of the opinion (which is no doubt influence by my teacher) that there really aren’t any secrets. It’s not the techniques in gung fu that are important. It is the “gung” in gung fu that is important. If I demonstrated something that took be the better part of the year to “get”, not to mention the years of foundation building prior to that, I am really not that concerned that someone will be able to “steal” it from me just by watching. If you can steal the essence of my gung fu just by watching, then either my gung fu is crap or you are one of those very rare “martial arts geniuses” that can pick things up extremely easily.
My teacher will from time to time say (paraphrasing) “I spent all this time, holding your hands, over and over again, trying to teach you and you guys still don’t pick it up. If there is someone who can pick it up just by watching me, I want HIM as a student.”
It’s like thinking you can pick up piano playing or painting just by watching. Unfortunately, you still have to do the work.
Alan… excellent points. My teacher was the same… very tough, strict, and disciplined teacher, but a truly wonderful teacher. He made us work very hard, during classes as well as when we were alone. But in the end, all very well worth it. Like you said so well… the “gung” in “gung fu”. Only through hard work.
Originally posted by ntc
[B]Certainly there are lots of teachers out there who encourage cross training, especially here in the US. At the same time, there are a lot of traditional stylists out there who still have that old belief, and I know a lot of them personally. I was born and raised in China, and learned my kung fu there as well, and so I know that these traditions are well and alive there. One does not have to go far… my own teacher, Sifu Ho Kam Ming, is one of them. He definitely would not be a happy camper and would be insulted if one of us were training at another school, Wing Chun or otherwise.
The point in my post was that if one was really interested in training multiple systems, then studying under a very, very traditional teacher with cultural belefs and values may not be the smartest choice. A more open-minded teacher might perhaps be more applicable. [/B]
NTC knows what he is talking about.
One has to ask him/herself, “Am I an outsider looking in, or an insider looking out?”
Accepting:
Some people understand the relationship of insider’s information and outsider’s information, as well as the martial culture, may very easily respect that which they are not in a position to receive. There are many people who fit this category, but are less “noisy” in the public eye, if you know what I mean.
Rejecting:
Some people do not understand why they cannot attain what they ask for, usually do one of two things:
Remain quiet and press on with his/her life.
Dismiss it for an unwillingness to share - and/or then claim their unwillingness to share as blasphemy. They are much more “noisy” in the public eye (sometimes creating and spreading many “mis-truths” to shun those who have rejected them.)
These people may not know or dismiss the deep martial culture. There are also many more characters out there who fit this category.
If you could care less, then I say heed NTC’s advice and find a more “modern” minded Sifu who may readily accept historical/traditional culture as well as modern culture.
I’m with NTC’s thoughts. It is said in the HFY family: “Know your time and space.”
Savi: thanks for your thoughts and comments. You bring up some very good and important points. I especially am with you in your earlier commen on requesting permission first prior to changing/adding to your training. This shows respect for the teachers, and I am sure they appreciate it. I have also seen students from some of the very traditional teachers do this, and some have been successful and some have not. But it all boils down to the same word… “respect”. You will likely go further by showing due “respect” to your teacher for whatever you had in mind especially in the aspect of cross-training, much like what you did by asking for permission, than otherwise, like going behind their backs.
I don’t know where you guys get this info from, maybe kung fu movies? My sigung is from china, and he trained in Wing chun under Ho Kam Ming, Taiji - yang family under a different sifu, Choy Lay Fut under a different sifu and he is a black belt in okinawan karate. He grew up and trained in china before coming to the U.S.
He is proficient and certified to teach all of those martial arts. In fact I am think about taking up some choy lay fut in the near future if he will teach me. Its gonna depend on how much my taiji and wing chun is advanced then. He doesn’t want to overload his students with too much at a too early of a stage.
Tons of fighters cross trained in tons of different systems, its the elitest that didn’t want to teach others. Remember back some 50 years ago they wouldn’t teach any non chinese? Times have changed and if you are willing to put in the hard work to train kung fu I don’t see a problem with it. Yes respect has a part in it as well, if you don’t respect your teaher or fellow students then you do not deserve to learn kung fu. That is up to the individual not some traditional system.
I have met a few old cranes in WC time… And all I would say on this topic is there is nothing worse than the feeling of being trapped with no exit in sight as an earnest student who constantly search for the betterment of his kung fu and himself. Great teacher has nothing to hide. They often gracefully allow their students to find their own wings unhindered and with their sincere blessings.
I never meant any disrespect. I am just trying to make a point that sharing kung fu with people who respect the art and are willing to advance themselves is a good thing. Then again I guess I am a westerner of this modern time.
However, all of us are brothers and sisters in the arts.
Gangsterfist,
I believe the issue at hand is not what to accept or reject in today’s environment. I think this is about understanding why a “traditionally/culturally-minded” Sifu might not accept a student.
I do not think this has anything to do with a person choosing to cross-train.
Besides, the cultural “blood” of many martial arts spans hundreds of years, not just a few decades.