How far can you get in Wingchun

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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NTC - I understand what you are saying, and it is also what I have heard for many, many years, but what I am saying is if we go beyond the ‘talk’, and objectively look at the history of Chinese MA, there has always (not just now and not just in the US) been a very strong tradition of cross training as well.

Choy Lai Fut was not founded in the US. Nor was Sun Taiji, nor was Bagua, nor was Jow Ga, nor was Lama, nor was Baguazhang, nor was Taijiquan, nor was Tai Shing Pigua, etc. etc. All these systems were the result of Chinese martial artists, in China, cross training.

I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying that it is an ‘do as I say not as I do’ in a way, and something certain sifu use to protect the rice bowl (be it financial or ego based), not an absolute and all encompassing reality of old time, traditional China.

Indeed, if our own WCK ancestors hadn’t cross trained, we might not have the pole, the dummy, and other elements of our own system today. :slight_smile:

22

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
[B]ntc-

I never meant any disrespect. I am just trying to make a point that sharing kung fu with people who respect the art and are willing to advance themselves is a good thing. Then again I guess I am a westerner of this modern time.

[/B]

Gangsterfist–> No worries… did not think you were disrespectful, and appreciated your honesty. That is what forums are for… so that we can all share ideas and viewpoints. In many aspects, we are all right (especially from the road we all individually travelled), and in the eyes others, we may sometimes be wrong. But if we all just put aside our own egos and insecurities as so many of us in this thread strive to do and keep and open mind, we can learn a lot from each other. But either way, appreciate your clarification.

23

I do believe there are at times cultural and/or personal perspectives at work with some teachers, who choose to be selective in their teaching. Some individuals, not unjustifiably, view the teaching of martial arts as an investment or even a gift of sorts. Commensurately, they may exercise their right to invest as they see fit.

IMHO, we have no inherent “right” such that another individual is required to us Wing Chun, or much of anything else. I’m as big a fan of altruism as anyone, yet I don’t believe anyone owes us anything. Once we know the rules of engagement, the next choice is ours.

Just a different perspective, FWIW.

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo
24

Originally posted by reneritchie
…what I am saying is if we go beyond the ‘talk’, and objectively look at the history of Chinese MA, there has always (not just now and not just in the US) been a very strong tradition of cross training as well.

Reneritchie–> You are absolutely correct in this. Over the years, many martial artists have done cross training, regardless of traditions, and there really is no right or wrong in this. Really up to the individual student and teacher. Besides, it is always beneficial to the martial artist to learn as much as he can, from his own system as well as others, in order to have a firm understanding of what he is truly practising.

A great example of cross training is Choy Lei Fut. It is a combination of the Choy family chuan, Lee family kicks, and aspects applied from Buddhism (the “fut” aspect of the art). If the founder, Chan Heung, had not done these various studies, Choy Lei Fut may not be in existence today.

And another aspect of your comment is also very true, that there are a lot of teachers who “protect their rice bowl”.

All are true and valid points.

I think Savi said it out best …: "I believe the issue at hand is not what to accept or reject in today’s environment. I think this is about understanding why a “traditionally/culturally-minded” Sifu might not accept a student.

I do not think this has anything to do with a person choosing to cross-train.".

Bottom line is, cross-training works for some and not for others… some think it is necessary and demanded, others feel it may be harmful, especially to the novice practitioner who has yet to master the primary art prior to taking on a secondar. Ultimately, the individual student really needs to find the one teacher that is best suited for his/her needs and what he/she is looking for.

25

Kathy,

I’m not familiar with FWIW. What do they stand for? Ha! Ha! Let get on the same track regarding basic English abbreviations. I agree with your post. We should not depend nor hold others to our ideals. It’s a free world. We can only be responsible for our own acts.

Regards,
PH

26

FWIW = for what its worth

27

Thanks, G-man!

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lol you’re most welcome

29

Hi Ging Mo Fighter,

You can get as far as your desire and hard work allows in Wing Chun. As for videos, books, the dummy, etc. In my opinion they are all great and essential aids but your advancement will be limited without personal instruction.

As for another Wing Chun school in Perth here is some info:

Perth - Sifu Peter Guy
Level 2, 8A Old Great Northern Highway
Midland W.A. 6056
04-0313-0774
guy.pj@bigpond.com

I am geographically challenged so am not sure if that is somewhere close to you or if you have tried there yet, however I hope it helps.

Here is a link to other schools in Austrailia, might give you a better contact through your own knowledge of the area.

Other WC Schools in Aus.

Good luck in your pursuit of Wing Chun.

FWIW- I think your style is way cool as well. One of my definate favs to watch and on my to do list of things to try in the future as time and energy permits.

Vicky

30

I’ve been teaching for 19.5 years - and I can tell you flat out that training simultaneously in two different schools can definitely be a problem…your second sifu and his students might have a hard time trusting you…and as NTC said…many martial art schools (mine included) are kind of like a family.

When crosstraining in two very different arts - say wc and a grappling art - it’s easier to be accepted.

But in the end, it really all depends upon the image you project to the second sifu in question, I suppose…My own personal experience has been that if the new student shows the proper respect and pretty much checks his other art at the door…then there’s no problem.

In fact, if he does those two things… then I usually almost always invite him sooner or later to show some of his first art or even try to test us (me and my advanced students) with it from time to time.

Another route to take is to buy some good wing chun videos…

31

Re: How far can you get in Wingchun

Originally posted by Ging Mo Fighter
[B]Just wondering how far you can get in Wingchun

If you purchase a book teaching in detail many things about wingchun

purchase a well made and correct wooden dummy

purchase a book on how to perform lots of the techniques? [/B]

Hi Ging Mo Fighter,

Well, as usual, I’ll be one to break ranks, and say that I feel it’s a waste of precious money and especially time to try learning Wing Chun from books, videos, and the internet. Resharing (below) my thoughts from a previous thread. Combined with input from others, at least you’ll have some different perspectives to consider.

Regards & best wishes on your journey.

  • Kathy Jo

Originally posted by kj
I don’t like to give “advice” - no one takes it anyway. :wink: But I will offer a few thoughts and suggestions.

  • Find the best instructor you can who meets your requirements and expectations, regardless of where they live and teach. If you cannot find someone you feel has the highest levels of competence in what you wish to pursue, or if you cannot travel to find it, my advice would be to consider a different art where you can obtain top quality instruction. I realize others differ with me on this point, but to my mind pursuing a martial art is too much of an investment to settle for second, third or fourth best in learning, even in Wing Chun. Obviously, you will set your own criteria for what you feel is best, just as others do.
  • Travel there to train as often as you can, whether once a day, once a week, once a month, or once a year. Make the most of every visit, and soak up information like a sponge.
  • In between visits, practice yourself silly. Even without hands to work with, you can still continue to build your foundation and many of the necessary capabilities working alone, especially working the sets, sandbag, stepping, turning, etc. The kung fu is something you have to earn anyway, and not something your teacher can give you.
  • After you have some time in and some foundation built (both physically and in understanding), get a wooden dummy. It won't substitute for a live partner, but it will help. Invest in a good [I]wooden[/I] dummy too, don't waste your money on junk.
  • Find yourself at least one partner to practice and learn along with you. Finding a partner is not easy; finding one who is a good partner for you and who will stay the course even harder. But aside from the right instructor and diligence in your personal practice, this is a most important piece. Not only will you have someone to practice "on" and with, but your two heads in learning will be better than one. If your new partner can become enthused as you are, encourage them to go to the class/school with you, wherever it is, and be an extra sponge for learning. You will also motivate each other. Until you get a partner, however long that takes, keep practicing on your own and do not make this a [I]constraint[/I] or showstopper. But do your best not to delay on this any longer than you must.
  • Once you and your partner have some foundation between you, and are solidly along and confident in your training path, find others to share and grow with. But word to the wise ... don't fancy yourself a master before your time, and don't try to play like one. Just walk the path with the others regardless who is ahead or behind or who leapfrogs; you must all help each other along. Humility is not only admirable, but appropriate for most mere mortals. A truly good teacher even learns from their students.
  • Be persistent and patient.
  • Don't waste your time trying to learn from books, tapes, or on your own without the best hands-on instruction you can avail yourself of. Reading and researching is okay provided you don't go bankrupt, but you cannot rely on any of that to help build your kung fu; trying to learn from such venues may do more harm than good in the long run. It is better to train under the guidance of an excellent instructor once a year, than a poor instructor every day. Kung fu is something you must build for yourself, it cannot be handed to you at any price. The time and effort is too much of an investment to waste on guesswork, trying to resolve unresolveable inconsistencies, or building bad habits that will take two or three times as long to undo. We get old too fast to waste time that way. Besides, that money is better invested to travel to a good instructor if need be.
  • Meet with, engage with, and share with other Wing Chun people and other martial artists whenever you can. Don't rely on this as your primary training though. If you have chosen carefully and wisely, you should follow your teacher's guidance, and not become distracted with everyone else's methods and advice. And I guarantee you will get more of it than you bargain for. However working with others to the degree and level that you are able is an [I]invaluable[/I] way to keep your eyes open, your mind sharp, and your practice honest; it will also challenge you so that you can continue to grow in skill and understanding. It will also present many questions for you to research with your teacher. Working with others will also help you to see when in-path corrections are needed, even if that correction means you should further explore other teachers. Sometimes we don't hit quite the right thing for us first time out of the chute.
  • Oh, and did I say be patient and persistent? :D

This is just off top of my head, and I’ll think of a ton more once I hit “send.” Short on time though, so will stop at that.

FWIW, my teacher lives over 3000 miles away from where I am. I did not select him because of overwhelming convenience, yet I found a way to make what I was looking for and hoping to learn into reality. These thoughts are gleaned from real life experience, not some impossible dream. Your priorities, constraints, options, and course will almost certainly be different from mine; so please consider this just some starter ideas for generating more of your own.

32

How far can you get in Wingchun?

How far can you get in Wingchun?

A better question is how far are you willing to go?

On another note, if relocating or travel is out of the question, is there an excellent TCMA teacher of any style in your area who would accept you? There are many paths to the top of the mountain and settling on a lesser light of a teacher won’t help you get there.

In the best of all possible worlds you should seek a top MA teacher who is also a person who you can admire for his/her character because in the end that’s what matters.

Regards,

33

the wingchun instructor (which i will leave nameless) also has learnt many other styles from other instructors - hypocrit mabye?

I feel I was more turned down because of my affiliation to a particular school that he didn’t like, which i guess is fair?

although thats no reason to dislike me :confused:

34

All instructors are human, with human quirks, foibles, values and attitudes. Much as some prefer to treat them, and still worse some expect to be treated, as demigods who can do no wrong.

How much of the attitude is traditional values, how much personal values, how much self interest, and how much to do with the history of the two instructors is impossible for an outsider to judge.

That aside, it’s usually good form to practice common courtesy and tell both your current instructor and your proposed new instructor exactly what your plans are, regardless of any cultural concerns or traditions.

“Doing the right thing” transcends cultural and traditional boundaries.

You should be able to find a decent WC teacher in Perth who will not place such conditions on you.

35

Originally posted by Ging Mo Fighter
[B]the wingchun instructor (which i will leave nameless) also has learnt many other styles from other instructors - hypocrit mabye?

I feel I was more turned down because of my affiliation to a particular school that he didn’t like, which i guess is fair?

although thats no reason to dislike me :confused: [/B]
If it’s who I think it is, he has learnt many styles over many many years of learning. I don’t think he has learnt any concurrently, which may be where the problem lies. If you choose to leave Malcolm Sue KF and start at another school, then that may be acceptable. However, Perth is a small place, and there would probably be the need for discussion between past and future sifus to ensure no toes are stepped on. I for one would not be happy to hear of one of my wing chun brothers or sisters leaving and starting somewhere else without them discussing it with the sifus involved. I do know of students who’ve come from other schools and they are just as accepted as anyone else. Some from other arts and some from other wing chun schools in Australia.

I’m sure it’s nothing personal - he turns many people down, regardless of their affiliation or lack of ;). I’m sure he won’t dislike you unless you give him reason to.

As I said, there are other wing chun schools in Perth. My brother learns at a different one to me. My office roommate learns at another one. Everyone’s happy with where they are. I can think of a few more schools too. Names? Well, Peter Guy has already been mentioned. Michael Ho, Rolf Clausnitzer are a couple more.

BTW, please don’t call him a hypocrite :mad:. Even though it was rhetorical, you are insulting my teacher (if that’s who you’re talking about). You know the drill - insulting him is insulting me.

If you’re not talking about my teacher, then please disregard my comments :p.

<edit>fixed typo</edit>

36

absolutely no disrespect intended, and i retract my comment if it was taken that way

i just really love what ive seen of wingchun, but ALAS, ive found a contact that i am talking with now who might be able to help me out (a name of which you mentioned)

37

How far can one get in Wing Chun?

Let’s see how Bruce Lee’s view.

http://epgpfm.fateback.com/concepts/liberate.html

Truth Cannot be Structured or Defined

One cannot express himself fully when imprisoned by a confining style. Combat “as is” is total, and it includes all the “is” as well as “is not,” without favorite lines or angles. Lacking boundaries, combat is always fresh, alive and constantly changing. Your particular style, your personal inclinations and your physical makeup are all ‘parts’ of combat, but they do not constitute the ‘whole’ of combat. Should your responses become dependent upon any single part, you will react in terms of what “should be” rather than to the reality of the ever-changing “what is.” Remember that while the whole is evidenced in all its parts, an isolated part, efficient or not, does not constitute the whole.— Bruce Lee

Certainly, this is contradict to those who believe in the Formulars… or Bruce Lee didnt find the most efficient system…

For me, Bruce is expresing about Non-Duality— that is real Chan.

38

Toby and Ging Mo you guys from Perth? Awesome! I didn’t think anyone here was from Perth. What school do you go to Toby? I saw the poster in yellowpages for Malcolm Sue he looked very flashy.

39

yeah i’ve been going to malcolm sue for almost 2 years, but am starting up william cheungs branch of wingchun because it offers me better chances for my long term goals (opperating a kungfu school for myself to support myself and teach kungfu)

so yeah, hopefully everything, combined with hours of sweating and hard work will one day work out

peace

40

Hi Ging Mo fighter,

Glad to see the contact I suggested is what you were looking for and in the right area.

Enjoy your training.

Vicky