but would you rather be dead?
People like to talk trash about Taekwondo (sp) all the time, but many of them don’t know what they are talking about. I never trained it, but there is a school that many of my friends attended and it was no joke. I think that when people talk trash they must be referring to the mcdojo aspect of Korean martial arts. In fact, some of the toughest guys I knew back then were training at Master Choi’s school in DC. I seem to remember them kicking a lot of a$$. A couple of years ago I had a discussion with a budy that trains at that school and we broke into some of the basics down-his technique seemed pretty solid…The guy can fight, and so can his Master. People used to challenge Master Choi a lot—and get beat a lot in the 80s. People keep trying to classify one art as more deadly or better than another…bottom line: if you can fight, you can fight. If you train to fight in different senarios, you’ll be better at fighting in those senarios. If all you do is hit pads and yell in class, then you may get your a$$ kicked before you take your training seriously. I’ve seen people do some pretty amazing things from lots of different arts. One just needs to have the ability to adjust, adapt, train, and implement knowledge.
Well what a bag of worms!
Coming from the UK, if I carry a gun, knife or weapon I get locked up, simple fact, so I do not have the luxury or option or of carrying anything apart from what is naturally part of my body.
Cannot argue with the 5 statements that need discussion:-
1 You dont know if Opponent is stronger than you.
2 You dont know if he is Armed
3 You dont know his pain tolerance
4 You dont know if he is on Drugs like steriods = Steriod Rage, PCP = No Pain etc.
5 He may be a Total Psychopath
Essentially we never know the level of violence that we are going to be faced with until it happens, unless you are a NHB fighter who not only knows weeks ahead that they are having a fight, they know the size, ability and some of the time the techniques the opponent prefers, and then when the fight starts they are 20 feet apart! The luxury, in my experience most street fight start from about 2 feet.
There has been alot of commonsense talked and though some have opposing ideological attitudes the general thread seems to be reality and practicality, as far as the law is concerned a few years ago a ex-army lad came to my door when I was out and threatened to put a gun to the baby-sitters boyfriend, infront of my girlfriends 8 year old daughter, not once but twice in the same evening, the police were called but nothing was done. I went to see him to ask him what he thought he was doing petrifying a young girl, he refused to open the door, I opened it, and when I went to talk to him he went for me but 3-4 slaps left him crying like the failed bully always does. I was done for assault and in court they took my 30+ years martial arts experience into account, knowing what I could have done but did not, and was fined £50.
The moral of the tale is everybody is allowed reasonable use of force, but if you are jumping up and down on their heads when the police turn up expect the book thrown at you.
Take care out there and keep smiling lol.
Trevor
It’s better to be carried by six than be Big Bubba’s b**ch!
People throw around this quote like they’ve thought about what it would mean to even spend one year in a maximum security prison. Only one year…?! I agree with the sentiment, but I7d rather adopt a more sensible motto, like something about not being there…
the real question is how will we defend ourselves from the road warrior zombies?
This kind of nonsense has no business on a serious thread like this… 'sides we could just leave it to our preprogrammed zombie ninja pirate kong robot.
on the topic of the thread:
every advantage you can get helps
MA are one of those advantages
but only if you train consistantly and realistically
a false sense of security and/or superiority can be a serious liability.
Excellently put.
Hard Fists is right about some TKD.
TJWC is right about the laws in many places… and the responsibility we have to face.
I was done for assault and in court they took my 30+ years martial arts experience into account, knowing what I could have done but did not
Unfortunately they didn’t know you had 30+ years experience in wing chun, so they didn’t know 3-4 slaps was about the maximum limit of your skills…!
Joking! 
another thing to think about is the time it takes to draw the gun. I saw a study somewhere that read to the effect of, from 20 feet or less, knife vs gun, the knife will usually win if the gun isn’t already drawn. given that statistic, I would guess that it’s the same for gun vs ASP. coincidentally, over the weekend, a guy claimed to have a gun (he didn’t), but he was grabbed by someone from behind and I had drawn my baton before he even finished pulling his hand from under his shirt. Had I hit him, he woulda been KOed before he was even close to drawing his gun - I was within 20 feet of him, and it’s a 21’ extendable baton.
21 foot extendable baton? :eek:
Mine’s only a foot long. 
Ok… you obviously don’t know anything about tae Kwon Do. Please do not talk about martial arts that you do not know about.
Tae Kwon Do is actually one of the best martial arts for street defense. Tae Kwon Do uses mainly kicks (of course) and in street fighting that doesn’t change. Against in-experienced fighters, High kicks really do own. They get kicked in the chest and head, while trying to attack you with their fists. It is actually really amusing. Against experienced/professional fighters, low kicks must be used. Saying that Tae Kwon Do is not good for street fighting obviously comes from the mouth of someone who has not had their femur/ankle/knee snapped in half by a low side/front/round kick.
:rolleyes: Idiot. Feet hit harder, and have more range than any other weapon in the arsenal of the human body.
I am (by no means) putting tae Kwon Do above any other martial art. I am, however, saying that Tae Kwon Do is very appropriate for street self defense. Just because a few stupid ATA Tae Kwon Do black-belts suck balls, does not mean that more serious Tae Kwon Do people also suck balls.
Observe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkdzGLWIdOA&search=tae%20kwon%20do%20tornado%20kick
http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/16408/Kickboxing_Knockout.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS8vvlKgzPQ&search=tae%20kwon%20do%20taekwondo%20karate%20kyokushin%20kickboxing%20wtf%20olympic
Little guy takes down a big guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMp13KOvaQA&search=tae%20kwon%20do
TKD VS Kyokushin Karate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkHuXhH0J7w&search=tae%20kwon%20do%20taekwondo%20karate%20kyokushin%20kickboxing%20wtf%20olympic
Yeah so… shut the f!ck up because I have won street fights against people who use Wing Chun and Muy Thai. In my opinion, Wing Chun focuses too much on punching and not enough on kicking, Tae Kwon Do being the opposite.. Usually focusing too much on kicking, and not enough on punching. I take street grappling classes and some training similar to that should be used in correlation with TKD.
street grappling? explain.
they hold thier classes in an alley covered in broken glass and nails.
I didn’t pick the name but that is what it is called… It is taught by some gung-ho ex-navy seal sniper 7th Dan Hapkido instructor (ITA certification) who teaches realistic hapkido for the “street”? lol… Idk what he was thinking when he named it, but it is a very good class (only 50 bucks a month too!!) that teaches many ways to deal with people that “hug” you when you start pounding their @ss with kicks and punches.
To be quite honest, Tae Kwon Do hardly touches on what to do if someone really starts grappling with you. They teach basic grab escapes, but nothing past the basic “twist your wrist towards their thumb” escape techniques.
Tae Kwon Do also teaches to follow up with a strike after a counter ALWAYS. I would prefer to quickly snap an arm than to punch them in the face… and believe me, I LOVE punching:D
Again as for the name of the class, I think it is all marketing… I guess people will like to hear the words “street grappling” rather than “modernized hapkido”
I got a black belt in some style of hapkido back in 85 and its pretty cool, I got it in north carolina, from some dude teaching downtown, I dont know what the lineage is or whatever, it may not even be real hapkido, but what I learned was alot like if you combined Tang Soo Do/Tae Kwon Do type striking with Aikdo and Jujitsu type locks, throws, and chokes. It has always been pretty effective in the street. Doesnt hurt that I can take multiple, at least 12 looking back at the fight, punches to the jaw and temple from a 6’8" 300lb Marine presidential guard and not be knocked out, I guess that is a strong chin? That helps for sure, funny though it only took one punch to his crotch to end the madness of him having me jammed up against a wall punching the crap out of me.
streetfighting
I train in Jun Fan Gung Fu/ Jeet Kune Do with Sifu Lamar Davis. I have TKD and BJJ experience as well. I find that the JKD can be applied more effeciently to a street fight than the other styles I have trained in. I would also agree with earlier posts that the gun is the best weapon of choice. But that to brings great responsibilities. Checkout this web site: http://www.hardcorejkd.com it is by Sifu Lamar Davis. His training is geared toward the real life world and not tournaments or MMA fights. Also check out http://www.realcombatonline.com this site has articles from Sifu Davs as well as other well known instructors. it also has a forum if you want to join it it is free as well.
KS
[SIZE=“5”]the best self defense gun is one with the front sight filed offf…
… so when i am shoving it up your silly ass it won’t permanently damage your sphincter.[/SIZE]
the drawback of the gun is that if you don’t already have it drawn, ****ed and trained on your attacker, you may not be fast enough to use it. I won’t addressthe rest of your post, as we are all entitled to our own opinions…
Sorry it’s taken me so long to respond. I’ve been out of the country. Here are some quotes, and thier sources:
“The issue of “home defense” or protection against intruders may well be misrepresented. Of 626 shootings in or around a residence in three U.S. cities revealed that, for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides (Kellermann et al, 1998). Over 50% of all households in the U.S. admit to having firearms (Nelson et al, 1987). It would appear that, rather than being used for defense, most of these weapons inflict injuries on the owners and their families.”
http://medlib.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html
“From 1993 to 2002,1 data from the BLS Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries (CFOI) show that 175 workers were killed on the job as the result of an accidental gunshot wound. While this total represented only 0.3 percent of the 61,146 workplace fatalities suffered by all workers during this 10-year span, these fatalities are especially alarming because they involve firearms and are prevalent in military and protective service occupations.”
Below is a chart showing the rates of accidental gunshot deaths between the years 1993 and 2002. Note the fact that these individuals were police, government agents, and military who shot and killed themselves or a by-stander in the course of doing thier jobs. These statistics do not include either gulf war, for obvious reasons.
http://www.bls.gov/opub/cwc/tables/sh20040903ar01t1.htm
“Research has shown that a gun kept in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a member of the household, or friend, than an intruder.(Arthur Kellermann and Donald Reay. “Protection or Peril? An Analysis of Firearm Related Deaths in the Home.” The New England Journal of Medicine, vol. 314, no. 24, June 1986, pp. 1557-60.) The use of a firearm to resist a violent assault actually increases the victim’s risk of injury and death(FE Zimring, Firearms, violence, and public policy, Scientific American, vol. 265, 1991, p. 48).”
"Keeping a gun in the home carries a murder risk 2.7 times greater than not keeping one. That is, excluding many other factors such as previous history of violence, class, race, etc., a household with a gun is 2.7 times more likely to experience a murder than a household without one, even while there was no significant increase in the risk of non-gun homicides. " (Arthur Kellermann et. al., “Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home,” The New England Journal of Medicine, October 7, 1993, pp. 1084-1091)
“The present study, based on a sample of eighteen countries, confirms the result of previous work based on the 14 countries surveyed during the first International Crime Survey. Substantial correlations were found between gun ownership and gun-related as well as total homicide and suicide rates. Of the recorded homicide rates, 16% were commited unintentionally. Widespread gun ownership has not been found to reduce the likelihood of fatal events committed with other means. Thus, people do not turn to knives and other potententially lethal weapons less often when more guns are available, but more guns usually means more victims of homicide and suicide.” (International Crime Victim Survey 2004)
So there you go. Some statistics and comments from our governement, the National, and International Crime Victim surevey (used by law enforcement to track trends in crime), Scientific American, and the New England Journal of Medicine.
Dude, a few points…first of all calm down. 
Hey, I agree with you about TKD. If you are an awesome TKD practitioner with the right skills and training, you can whoop ass. However, this is no reason to diss other styles like Wing Chun or Muy Thai. They both also produce some awesome fighters. There will always be people on these forums claiming that one style is inferior or terrible, but this is just because they have yet to encounter a good practitioner, who does the style justice. People often pick on Tae Kwon Do because of all the cheesy dojos that lack proper training measures. I see 8 year olds with black belts. :rolleyes: Furthermore, those clips aren’t very good ones. Those are cheesy point tournaments that have too many pads, restrictions and not enough diverse arts competing. Post a UFC or MMA event where a TKD guy whoops as and it will be more powerful in supporting your arguement. Anyway, I do agree with you overall. It depends far more on the fighter than the art itself. TKD fighters can whoop some ass too. Just an observation…
…LOL
Thanks for all the data. I have to admit I see some weaknesses in the way the data are interpreted in the reporting, but it is something we’ll likely have to agree to disagree on. The fact is that the base rates for accidental shooting deaths are extremely low. 175 over a 10 year period, many of which occurred in occupations where firearms were regularly carried is not very many. Further, if 50% of American homes contain firearms then it is erroneous to claim, as one of the above mentioned authors do, that “most of these weapons inflict injuries on the owners and their families.” Clearly most of these weapons are never used in any violent way whatsoever. Including data on intentional suicides is just a way to inflate the numbers, as it is irrelevant to the topic of accidental injuries and fatalities. Anyway, yes firearms can pose a danger. Certainly lots of people buy guns and store them unsafely in homes with kids, etc… and I would never advocate any of that. However, you’ll note in looking at my original quote that I was specifically referring to people who legally carry firearms, as in those with concealed carry permits who have gone through the required training and people who are otherwise permitted to carry firearms. I suppose these people would fall into the 175 work related accidental firearm fatalities, which again, is not very many given that the data included police officers and such. Data on injuries and fatalities related to guns are some of the most manipulated data there are - both sides of the fence (the gun owner people and the gun control people) have their extreme supporters and both are certainly guilty of skewing the stats in their favor. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle and is basically common sense.
uhm…
Not saying be completely stupid about it but if my life depended on it and I was armless I’d would try my best to just break his arm or even in jujitsu “the falling arm bar” thing blast til’ the clips empty then whoop’m.
But if it happened to be more than 1 person then use each person against the other… right???
If you are at a distance, run. Most criminals do not know how to use and aim a gun in the first place. If you are close, martial arts is very effective. Where I train in Northern Shaolin, my Sifu teaches kung-fu for self defense. We learn gun defense, REAL knife defense (which is included in our testing), and even chair fighting. The biggest reason people can’t defend themselves is there are too many garbage schools who teach the fancy stuff. We learn forms, but he stresses real techniques like groin kicks, eye gouges, and throat strikes. If you are close enough, and have trained long enough, your martial arts should be able to protect you or give you a means for escape.