How do you defend aginst a front shove

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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[QUOTE=taai gihk yahn;1062829]welcome back; place wasn’t the same w/out you - people started taking themselves waaaay to seriously…[/QUOTE]thanks, though i must admit my visits will be sparodic in nature. people can take themselves as serious as the fool in them allows. :wink:

the front shove, tiger push, blah, bling, blah… excellent attack when intention is of a higher standard - speeding freight trains and streaking comets cannot be readily blocked by say, er… a simple cranes wing, yet the the folded cranes wing can be utilized to trap the two hands/arms thus opening the nether regions to dragons kicking over the mountains. :slight_smile:

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EarthDragon
No problem. When I get my vid up, I will demonstrate it. Fa Jing is the only way to create the amount of force you are talking about. If afterwards you still aren’t impressed that’s ok too because we don’t want to kill people anyway.

ginosifu

43

goju
my mistake I read it wrong, slaming is ok in my book. I thought he said clinch/shoot list and take down. not throw down… if you remain standing its all good.

ginosifu
I am well aware of jing power its usefullness and its purpose. However using jing to punch or kick is one thing ie using your body to connect the linkes of the body, twisting and upheaving of the fu zong shin, to snap outward to the extremities, however this does not constitute strength enoufgh to create 900 lbs of force. if so you would be the only human in history to acomplish this. I have trained with 2 very high level masters one in gung fu the other in medical qigong, they both can produce incrediable jing on thei own way however this is not its purpose. again as a shifu I am being respectful but with jing would be hard to break the even ulna or radius, never the spine cant be done.

please dont post a video of you trying.. it would be hard to find volunteers LOL

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EarthDragon;
I myself can only go by what my sifu has told me because I have never snapped anyones neck. Although theoretical the way I do it seems plausable, however I am not bone specialist. AND I would have never used Fa Jing on my staudent. I would lose all that tuition money !

ginosifu

ps. I trust you when say It can’t be done…

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[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1062983]this is horrible advice … have you guys been in a street altercation? you never voluntatrily go to the ground espeically from a simple push, give me a break.[/QUOTE]

just coz you dump somebody on their head, doesnt mean you have to go to the ground… you have wrestled before right??? why does everyone always assume its ground fighting like bjj… esspecially greco…

i have used grappling in street fights oh so many times… in prison it was esspecially handy, everyone wanted to trade shots to the face, nobody saw me comming, nobody… MMA wasnt as popular back then, nobody had an answer… i was 155lbs chumping steroid monkeys with retard strength but very little real martial skill… i fought a couple boxers too, one hurt me pretty good but i still won… the other two went down like a sack of potatoes… and no i didnt go down too… after their head hit the floor they got to feel me stomping their faces, not dryhumping them and waiting for some screw to wander on the range and break it up…

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[QUOTE=ginosifu;1063023]EarthDragon;
I myself can only go by what my sifu has told me because I have never snapped anyones neck. Although theoretical the way I do it seems plausable, however I am not bone specialist. AND I would have never used Fa Jing on my staudent. I would lose all that tuition money !

ginosifu

ps. I trust you when say It can’t be done…[/QUOTE]

yeah its alot harder said than done… if you have the powewr to do that, then you were prolly strong enough to just swat them outta your way like a fly anyways, so why pull their head off :smiley:

like an adult could do it to a non resisting small child… biut another adult that is fighting back??? only on tv…

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A little reality check. It happens all the time, guys get thrown down and they die. They get punched once, fall down and die. Hit their head on something, king hit, whatever. It happens.

Other times, you see somebody get speared or slammed onto their head, say like in old school Rugby, and you can’t imagine how they ever get up.

So, what’s strong enough?

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[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1063069]A little reality check. It happens all the time, guys get thrown down and they die. They get punched once, fall down and die. Hit their head on something, king hit, whatever. It happens.

Other times, you see somebody get speared or slammed onto their head, say like in old school Rugby, and you can’t imagine how they ever get up.

So, what’s strong enough?[/QUOTE]

Yeah - I’m always amazed at how resilient and fragile we are.

Thanks for the kind words folks, but I’m not a world-class grappler. There are lots of people out there that I can’t hang with. I’m pretty good for a guy with kids and a job. The world class ones - it is their job - and teaching takes a back seat to competition

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its crazy how some people fall out of planes without a chute and are fine, while another will trip over their shoelace and die…

but as far as breaking necks on purpose, you cant rely on something that may work if all the planets align and its ur birthday…

i’d like to hear TGY opinion on the whole head twisting thing… im sure you would hurt the guy even when it doesnt work… but i mean, there are better ways to hurt people;)

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Sorry it took me a while to get these shove vids up. also sorry for the bad quality, I did not know the kids put their fingers on the lens.

Vid #1 when you have room to move:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnxnCqJ6Rmk

Vid #2 when they are too close and you can’t side step:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU9qGBAkNE8

Vid #3 Break the neck !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj4D7BtOMzA

again sorry… the kids were crying… the baby was screaming..this is lesson for those of you thinking about having kids…DON’T

ginosifu

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I like that you went with Chin Na techniques because let’s face it, you’ll have to use restraint with most people you end up fighting.

You know that you’re actually in perfect position to apply a RNC in the third video… you could use that instead of a neck break/neck crank.

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[QUOTE=MightyB;1063567]I like that you went with Chin Na techniques because let’s face it, you’ll have to use restraint with most people you end up fighting.

You know that you’re actually in perfect position to apply a RNC in the third video… you could use that instead of a neck break/neck crank.[/QUOTE]

I only posted that for a question someone asked me killing someone.

ginosifu

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This one I did a while back for a woman’s self defense course. It is for a front choke, however you can consider this choke almost the same as a front shove.

When over powered by a larger person, this will work for the shove as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oMGBwi4q4c

ginosifu

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[QUOTE=Syn7;1063126]its crazy how some people fall out of planes without a chute and are fine, while another will trip over their shoelace and die…

but as far as breaking necks on purpose, you cant rely on something that may work if all the planets align and its ur birthday…

i’d like to hear TGY opinion on the whole head twisting thing… im sure you would hurt the guy even when it doesnt work… but i mean, there are better ways to hurt people;)[/QUOTE]

I remember a line from Men’s Health, where a guy was saying how it’s so strange that we can work out at the gym with heavy weights all day, and still throw out our backs trying to lift a 15lb chair.

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[QUOTE=Drake;1063988]I remember a line from Men’s Health, where a guy was saying how it’s so strange that we can work out at the gym with heavy weights all day, and still throw out our backs trying to lift a 15lb chair.[/QUOTE]

life can be absurd… i remember a lady threw her baby off a really high suspension bridge into a canyon in my area… hit rocks, bounced around… scrapes, baby was fine… another couple jumped out a plane together and got tangled up… both lived, one broken bone between em.. landed on soft marshy ground…

on the other end, i know a guy who hit his head on the door jam, not even that hard, barely a mark he didnt complain at all… few days later he just dropped dead… so many examples… its not fair and its very ironic, but its life…

as for the neck thing, i do believe if somebody wqas that much bigger and stronger they could… like a small woman and a large man, like 280lbs 6’5 all muscle monkey man… but in no way shape or form do i feel its a viable move and i dont feel its worth practicing… as a crank, sure, but not as a break… you break a guys neck, it means its serious and if its that serious you dont take risks by trying sh!t like that… you get it done the fastest easiest way you know how… tried and tested stuff… leave the esoteric for the classroom for laughs and a bit of fun here and there…

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u defend a shove by punching the guy in the face. stop being dum dums.

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[QUOTE=ginosifu;1063709]This one I did a while back for a woman’s self defense course. It is for a front choke, however you can consider this choke almost the same as a front shove.

When over powered by a larger person, this will work for the shove as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oMGBwi4q4c

ginosifu[/QUOTE]

I don’t really know what kind of street altercations happen in Ohio, but the only time I’ve ever been shoved or seen anyone be shoved is when someone is close to your face. Certainly never seen someone try and shove from a few feet away like that.

That being said, what happens to that girl when her attacker can run faster than her? :rolleyes:

… Hence the reason why most womens self defense courses emphasize disabling an attacker before retreating.

Anyways, a two handed shove isn’t usually the start of the fight, more of a physical way of saying “Don’t mess with me”, so it doesn’t really require a defense to it. Even if you’ve been shoved back, you usually have time to stand your ground and try and defuse the situation. In our legal system, its not safe to assume that busting someone up for shoving you, won’t be ruled as excessive force.

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[QUOTE=AdrianK;1064166]I don’t really know what kind of street altercations happen in Ohio, but the only time I’ve ever been shoved or seen anyone be shoved is when someone is close to your face. Certainly never seen someone try and shove from a few feet away like that.

That being said, what happens to that girl when her attacker can run faster than her? :rolleyes:

… Hence the reason why most womens self defense courses emphasize disabling an attacker before retreating.

Anyways, a two handed shove isn’t usually the start of the fight, more of a physical way of saying “Don’t mess with me”, so it doesn’t really require a defense to it. Even if you’ve been shoved back, you usually have time to stand your ground and try and defuse the situation. In our legal system, its not safe to assume that busting someone up for shoving you, won’t be ruled as excessive force.[/QUOTE]

AdrianK:
This was an example if you were prepared and had time to make a descision on whether to run or to stay and fight. This was one approach, I did not post the other approaches cause they did not flow with the front shove thread. I have many approaches and staying and fighting is definately one of them.

I don’t know where you come from but here I teach Police, Prison Guards, Swat Teams and Woman’s self defense as well. Some woman are big enough to tangle with a man to try and disable them. Some woman are just too small to grapple with a man (if they have a choice). If they have no choice, then they must deal with situation.

As far as the 2 handed shove… I have been in bar fights and seen first hand shoves that lead to grappling. Once a person touches you in a any way, the fight is on. Are you stupid enough to believe that someone will push or shove you and back down? You need to get a grip on reality or get into a couple of bar fights before you say something that’s not correct.

ginosifu

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An alternative use, other than blustering bar room confrontations, is when someone already has you wrapped up, or basically has their arms on the outside of your arms.

I’ve relied on the two handed shove to break clinches and body locks, if they aren’t absolutely locked in…

Also, to meet an attack…

This bar fight chest pushing stuff is basic fundamental self defense 101, a perinnial favorite with the “how to” crowd.

There are gazillions of techniques, but fundamentally, unless you are dead drunk dopey it shouldn’t hurt you. So its a free shot that very clearly establishes you are defending yourself, so you f-ing defend yourself without hesitation. By pushing you, he has demonstrated his hesitation, are we on the same page yet? Don’t matter what style, whatever, you beat it with superior heart and focus, because you are a trained Mother F-er, and he’s an idiot.

Why worry about the attack, its benign unless delivered by a pro, or you get caught off guard and fall over something…

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[QUOTE=ginosifu;1064188]AdrianK:
This was an example if you were prepared and had time to make a descision on whether to run or to stay and fight. This was one approach, I did not post the other approaches cause they did not flow with the front shove thread. I have many approaches and staying and fighting is definately one of them.[/quote]

You misunderstood what I was trying to say. I never implied you should stick around and fight it out, what I meant was that if you’re going to try and escape, the most common methods involve disabling the attacker first (groin kick, eye gouge, etc.) so that you have a head start on escaping.

[quote=]I don’t know where you come from but here I teach Police, Prison Guards, Swat Teams and Woman’s self defense as well.[/quote]

Your point being… ? I wasn’t doubting your credibility, I was critiquing your videos.

[quote=]Some woman are big enough to tangle with a man to try and disable them. Some woman are just too small to grapple with a man (if they have a choice). If they have no choice, then they must deal with situation.[/quote]

Disabling them has little to do with size. To put it better, you need to stun the assailant before trying to escape, otherwise there’s a much greater risk of them tackling you from behind.

[quote=]As far as the 2 handed shove… I have been in bar fights and seen first hand shoves that lead to grappling. Once a person touches you in a any way, the fight is on. Are you stupid enough to believe that someone will push or shove you and back down? You need to get a grip on reality or get into a couple of bar fights before you say something that’s not correct.[/quote]

Thats pretty funny you say that, I’ve never really seen anyone get shoved unless they’re close to someones face.(and even then, neither person really wants to fight, they just don’t want to look like they’re backing down) Well, at least since elementry school. Oh wait, it all makes sense now, you spend a lot of time on playgrounds ginosifu? :smiley: