Forgive my Cantonese for you Manderian purests 
I study hung gar and we have these forms in our system. I was interested in what others that specialize in these forms or styles that these forms are found in, think about the forms.
What sort of things do you feel the forms teach you? I think we do them with a southern flavor so they probably have a different feel than what the northern systems do. Any one care to share advice, opinions, tips, history, etc?
Thanks
Tom
Hello der.
Gung Lik Kuen exists in several styles both northern and southern. Itâs purpose is strength development, bone development, tensile muscle development and of course sinew and tendon lengthening and strengthening.
It also develops the horse stance heavily in the way that it was taught to me where a lot of the form is spent in horse.
The name translates to roughly âPower generating fistâ but it also has another meaning. Gong Lik also means âPowerful essenceâ and the term is used when a person sees kung fu played with good power and intent. The person doing this is said to have gung lik. (Kung Lek )
For Jeet Kuen, well this one means roughly âstopping fistâ and develops speed and hand/eye coordination.
Both these forms build the practitioner and arm him with a reasonable set of training regimens to develop all those qualities that should be in a kungfu practitioner.
Anyway, likely there is more to contribute from the others.
peace
Gung Lik Kuen and Jeet Kuen
tparkerkfo,
These two sets are part of the standard 10 Ching Wu (Jing Mo) set. So I believe that if you look into your sifuâs roots there is a connection to Ching Wu. One of your past sifus either learned or taught at the Ching Wu Schools.
All sifus who teach at the Ching Wu schools must first learn and teach the standard 10 sets before they can teach their speciality (their own style) to the students. These are very strick rules in Ching Wu.
All students must learn the 10 standard Ching Wu sets, which takes two years to learn, before moving onto a specialized style.
Of course these sets will have southern flavor in them since your sifu style will influence it. But as long as the core of the sets is taught, southern influence onto the Northern sets does not matter.
Hello Kung Lek and Northern Shaolin,
Thanks for the input. As far as I know, my lineage does not have a direct lineage to Ching Wu. However, my sigung and his sifu have noticed the merits of various styles and felt the need to introduce various sets, atleast from what I have deduced. Some day I will try to get a clear answer. The norther sets add quickness and flexability were some may perceive is lacking in Hung Gar. I do find these sets challenging. LOL.
One question I have, it was mentioned that kung lek kuen develops the bones and tendons as well as the horse. I donât want to argue the point but how does it develop the bones? The tendones I can see a little in the stretching, but I see more tendon stuff in Jeet Kuen. As far as bone strengthening and horse stance, I would say Hung Gar develops this to a specialty. I would say that Kung Lik Kuen has different attributes that a hung stylist woul find useful, though I am still figuring it out. LOL.
Do I understand correctly, that it may not matter if I use a southern or norhtern flavor? That these forms may be generic? I can apply the stengths of my style in these forms? This makes sense if various styles would learn these. If eagle claw learned these in the north, and then was transfered to the south to say choy li fut (Tarn San) or in Fut san, then it would make some sense that it would be flexible.
Also, I do have a wing chun background, which jeet is a concept. I would make a subtle distinction that jeet doesnât mean stop in the sense that it stops something in its track. I would say that it meets or intercepts something. The major difference would be in that meeting doesnât mean stoping dead in its track. You can intercept and then redirect. Not sure if this is what is meant in Jeet Kuen though. I will need to look at the form more. i am just learning this set.
Thanks all. Hope to hear more.
Tom
Gung Leuk
Hey donât even waste your time with the mandarin. This is the SOUTHERN forum.
Good comments on Gung Lik from Kung Lik. I have seen praying mantins versions of Gung Lik as well. I tend to think of it as just a good basic set. The horses are well defined and clear. The movements are relatively easy to teach. There are short compact movements and loose whipping movements. All in all an excellent introduction to most of the primary concepts in Chinese gong-fu.
I heard from my Sifu originally it was an eagle claw set but has since been imported into the basic curriculum of many styles for the reasons mentioned above.
All the best.
Omar
Gongliquan & Jiequan
Kung Lik Kuen (Gongliquan) and Jeet Kuen (Jiequan) are very interesting forms of Jing Wu assoc.
here is a link to a discussion on Qongliquan:
Lately, I have received some more info. that is related to the old Gongliquan system. It is quite fascinating. BTW, the building the bone part comes from the Pai Da (body hardening) elements that âwereâ in the form. Much of those have been lost.
As for Jeet Kuen (Jiequan), it is the opposit dynamic of Gongliquan. It is mainly a kicking set. In a way, they compliment each other well althought they are most likely not from the same system.
Mantis108
Hi Mantis 108-
My sifu teaches -Hak Fu Gong Lik Kuen- and as far as I understand, all elements are intact. Bone, muscle, sinew/tendon, blood and breath are all worked in this set. It would be an excellent set to have if you had only one set in other words.
I was taught it in a progressive manor. Meaning the first time I learned it is different from what the finished set is. I have practiced my sifus version of this set for more than 8 years now and I would regard it as advanced when played properly. But then, i guess that is true for any set simple or complex 
As for the meaning of âjeetâ - well, âinterceptionâ is one way of translating, âstoppingâ is another way I guess. The essence is in the motion and flow of the set.
Iâm sure many of us here understand by now that there are multiple applications to any given move extrapolated from a set
In the end, Iâve never given a whole lot of heed to romanized spellings or the semantics of Kungfu training. Just do the training and pay attention during instruction and correction. After time, it will work itself out accordingly.
peace
Hi Kung Lek
<<My sifu teaches -Hak Fu Gong Lik Kuen- and as far as I understand, all elements are intact. Bone, muscle, sinew/tendon, blood and breath are all worked in this set. It would be an excellent set to have if you had only one set in other words.>>
That sounds like a very interesting set.
<<I was taught it in a progressive manor. Meaning the first time I learned it is different from what the finished set is. I have practiced my sifus version of this set for more than 8 years now and I would regard it as advanced when played properly. But then, i guess that is true for any set simple or complex>>
Well said, my friend.
<<As for the meaning of âjeetâ - well, âinterceptionâ is one way of translating, âstoppingâ is another way I guess. The essence is in the motion and flow of the set.>>
I think Jing Wu use the character for âthe flow of motionâ or rythum as the title. But we used the word interception, which has same prounciation but different in meaning.
<<Iâm sure many of us here understand by now that there are multiple applications to any given move extrapolated from a set>>
I guess was just pointing out the obvious. I rant about that sometime because I rarely seem any descent application of the Gongliquan out there (including Dr YJMâs). My beef is those who are in the position to publish material in CMA donât seem to be interested in publish the better stuff. I have seen Japanese arts (Video or TV) that has segment of even just 5 mins that is so rich in techniques that IMHO is more valuable than a $40 USD Kung Fu tape of 45 mins. No wonder people think that Kung Fu sucks. This wouldnât have happened if Kung Fu people seriously take publishing material seriously.
<<In the end, Iâve never given a whole lot of heed to romanized spellings or the semantics of Kungfu training. Just do the training and pay attention during instruction and correction. After time, it will work itself out accordingly.>>
Fair enough.
Warm regards
Mantis108
Hi all,
I learned mantis version of Kung lik keun. I have also seen and partially learned the eagle claw version from GM Lung Shum. Both versions are similiar but IMO the mantis version focuses more on fighting applications. The energy is also different between the two.
I donât want to argue the point but how does it develop the bones? The tendones I can see a little in the stretching, but I see more tendon stuff in Jeet Kuen.
tparkerkfo maybe you can elaborate on how you are performing this set? There are movements in the form which are for stretching but I was taught the whole form should be practiced with loose whipping motions where your whole body contracts at the end of a movement. In all it is a very external set maybe not as hard as Hung Gar though LOL.
mantis_seeker
Mantis 108, I agree with youâŚbut at the same time I disagreeâŚwhy? Because presenting all the applications of a form would mean youâd have to write a whole book just for a single form. Would such books sell? definitely no, or with so small an audience that it would mean sure bankrupcy to the publisher.
And even with that, there would still be people saying âyeah, but this and that application are missing, yet in my school blah blahâ, because everyone has their own ideas (based on their schools, experiences, whatever) of what a âgoodâ apllication isâŚgood refferred to what? Itâs fidelity to the move in the form? Itâs usage of the principle? Itâs combat effectiveness (as dull as this concept is?)?? What you consider a good application, another man will consider less important than another variantâŚwho is right? who is wrong?
See, itâs not that easy to present a form and application and impossible to satisfy everyoneâŚ
If man to man instruction and oral transmission from sifu to student is so emphasized in martial arts, itâs because the guys realized ages ago that no written document, however complex it could be, will catch the essence of teaching.
Publishers cannot financially sell books about one form with 1000s of applicationsâŚtoo small an audienceâŚso they put many forms, and included some basic applicationsâŚof course, by doing so, they have to choseâŚand we all know everybody canât be pleased (even what you consider the most beautiful woman on earth could be an ugly one to someone across the globe).
Still, it is better than having no books at allâŚ
Ching Mo Forms
Kung Lek Kuen and Jeet Kuen are both forms that were taught at the Ching Mo schools before students would specialize under a specific master. Two more are Tam Tui and Bek Bo (not sure that one is spelled right; its the mantis one).
My system Fan Tzi Ying Jow Pai (ie: Northern Eagle Claw) as well as Hung Gar were both Ching Mo systems.
Jeremiah Spradlin - Northern Eagle Claw - Atlanta, Georgia
Originally posted by mantis_seeker
tparkerkfo maybe you can elaborate on how you are performing this set? There are movements in the form which are for stretching but I was taught the whole form should be practiced with loose whipping motions where your whole body contracts at the end of a movement. In all it is a very external set maybe not as hard as Hung Gar though LOL.
mantis_seeker [/B]
I am not sure what your looking for. I have some eagle claw tapes with these two forms and we do it fairly close to what they do. There is a lot of whiping or fast movements and strethcing. I see Jeet Kune as more demanding because of the kicks. Though Gung Lik Kuen seems to have more long range stretching in the punches in a few parts. Donât know though, that is why I am asking LOL.
Tom
Same movements â done a bit different
I do have to note that I have seen these Ching Mo forms done by Northern Eagle Claw, Hung Gar, and Northern Praying Mantis schools, and even though its the same form, different systems add to these forms to make them more like the style of that particular system.
However, if you know the forms, you will easily be able to tell its still Kung Lek Kuen (Strong Fist), Jeet Kuen (Quick Fist), and Tam Tui (Springing Leg).
Jeremiah Spradlin - Northern Eagle Claw - Atlanta, Georgia.
What is the best translation of âjeetâ in your opinion? âShut downâ, âstopâ, âinterceptâ, or something else?
Jeet = Quick
Well⌠according to the forms chart in our school:
Kung Lek Kuen = Power Fist
Jeet Kuen = Quick Fist
Tam Tui = Springing Leg
I donât speak Chinese, but this is directly off of our schoolâs form list.
Jeremiah Spradlin - Ying Jow Pai ( Northern Eagle Claw KungFu ), Atlanta, Georgia
That is the problem with English from ChineseâŚ
Jeet is spelled one way but there are a couple of characters and a couple of variations in pronunciation.
One is Jeet (Mandarin - Jie) - intercept
One is Jeet (MandarinâŚcanât spell itâŚdoh) - fast âŚ
So, if you donât see the character or are told explicitly, you end up with different namesâŚ
There is one well known teacher (Chinese too) that has mistranslated one of the routines they teach - even with the Chinese characters because they translated each character instead of realizing that two of the characters go together and make the meaning differentâŚ
About ApplicationsâŚ
Hi Crimson Pheonix,
<<<Mantis 108, I agree with youâŚbut at the same time I disagreeâŚwhy?>>>
Great, letâs have a discussion about that.
<<<Because presenting all the applications of a form would mean youâd have to write a whole book just for a single form. Would such books sell? definitely no, or with so small an audience that it would mean sure bankrupcy to the publisher.>>>
Well not if the applications are done in the sake of doing applications. That means a wide array of apps are possible. But the fact that forms are moves that comes together under one theme means there is a lesson to be had despite the Da Ti Na Shuai possibilities. If the material are presented in a generally recognizable and agreeable manner, I donât see why such a book wonât be sought after. It is a matter of origanizing and presenting the information in a interesting and inspiring way.
<<<And even with that, there would still be people saying âyeah, but this and that application are missing, yet in my school blah blahâ, because everyone has their own ideas (based on their schools, experiences, whatever) of what a âgoodâ apllication isâŚgood refferred to what? >>>
Well the universality of the apps is a good start. Then style specific apps in comparsion is a bonus. Surely a form such as Gongliquan is almost universal. A good application/combo should have a good entry, main technique, and a follow up. This would not be hard to gauge with experience. I think I am basically Jaded by the one punch one kill applications that are flooding the market.
<<<Itâs fidelity to the move in the form? Itâs usage of the principle? Itâs combat effectiveness (as dull as this concept is?)?? What you consider a good application, another man will consider less important than another variantâŚwho is right? who is wrong?
See, itâs not that easy to present a form and application and impossible to satisfy everyoneâŚ>>>
I agree that it is not easy but for the sake of Kung Fu, the master should not just stop trying. BTW, if the master can not present his/her material in its entirety and comprehensiveness and to bring the beholder to understand the message, should he/she be qualified as a master? I am not critical of any particular master but in general I personally am against half explained stuff. Also form has a flow which can be cross checked by 2 men drills and forms (not that you have to do it that way). There is no reason that a central theme and/or principle of techniques can not be found within a form. There is always water to make the flour stick together as a dough. Otherwise such material should be regarded as lines or roads not a form.
<<<If man to man instruction and oral transmission from sifu to student is so emphasized in martial arts, itâs because the guys realized ages ago that no written document, however complex it could be, will catch the essence of teaching.>>>
Good point but it will be lean towards elitisim in the schools and Kung Fu community in general. That is not to the best interest of the Kung Fu community at large.
<<<Publishers cannot financially sell books about one form with 1000s of applicationsâŚtoo small an audienceâŚso they put many forms, and included some basic applicationsâŚof course, by doing so, they have to choseâŚand we all know everybody canât be pleased (even what you consider the most beautiful woman on earth could be an ugly one to someone across the globe).
Still, it is better than having no books at allâŚ>>>
I will have to respectfull disagree since a lot of the application base books and video such as BJJ, Judo, etc⌠sells pretty well. So I think a lot of the Kung Fu âmastersâ are really behind the times. That is just my own believes.
Best regards
Mantis108
is this the form in Yang jwing-ming⌠book on long fist?
thanks
5b-
I believe that book by YJM covers the set Lien Bo Chuan.
cheers
Re: Gongliquan & Jiequan
As for Jeet Kuen (Jiequan), it is the opposit dynamic of Gongliquan. It is mainly a kicking set. In a way, they compliment each other well althought they are most likely not from the same system.
Mantis108 [/B][/QUOTE]
Your right Mantis108.
Jeet Kuen is from the Mi Tsung Style. The original name of this set is called Flying Swallow Fist and it builds the legs. Gongliquan or Kung Lic Kuen develops upper body strength. I forget the roots of this set but it is not Mi Tsung.