I couldnt take it anymore Yushan.
I had to step in and speak up for high quality instructors like yourself.
I know you arnt charging 5g but I am sure you give your potential instructors the education they need to be successfull.
I only charge $399.99 for my sifu uniforms.
The secret book is 5000. It is written in invisible ink and can only be read when the student has reached enlightenment.
mantid,
Come on you were in Buffalo and you did not look me up? too bad I would have loved to have met with you and invited you to our school. What in God’s name were you doing in Buffalo? I shouldnt say that our city has lots of charm and this summer has been over 90 degrees all summer so its not that bad. but please if you ever make it this way again please contact via our website…
I had a deaf student for years. and although he was handicapped and could not work perse he paid for his lessons in other ways. He was great with computers so he would work on the website, newsletter and various other chores.
I also had a student from the projects who had 7 sisters and brothers, and would ride his bike and just sit and watch the class, finally I asked him why he didnt join and he told me his mother could not afford it. So I made a deal with him. I told him that I enjoyed a certian kind of tea that could only be found at “feelrite” health food stores which I knew was out of his way but I told him to bring me a cup with 1 tea bag in it to every class he attended and I would warm it in the microwave after class and that would be his tuition.
I then called my friend at he store and paid for the whole box but never told my student so he thought it was just free.
You see its not the money its the commitment. Once we put a dollar sign on martial art that comminment can be bought and sold like a commodity.
This is not good, what are our goals as teachers? to become rich because of our knowledge? I never paid much for my knowledge from james shyun, he never even charged me for classes and I lived at the school for over a year. I did clean the school and wash his car do errands and various chores but I never paid 5,000 for my test. Why should that have changed? why should I charge 5,000 to my students.
What broke my heart was when one of my long time students asked me if the only way to become a sifu in 8 step was to pay for it…I said no hard work, practice and commimment will make you into a sifu, is not something that you can buy its something you earn.
This has been a problem for years, why exploit the art for finacial gain? are we that materialistic? I am not saying if you own a school not to charge, but realize things are more important and worth value than money. Hell I have owned and ran a school for 9 years. it holds it own somethimes it loses money but I teach out of love of the arts not to make a living, I have a job for that.
Go ahead make money to support your school, but theres a problem when you want to become a millionaire from cheating, lieing and deciving people. be well…
Earth dragon
I agree.
I just worked a deal for a student to be able to take the extra classes and privates for instructor level. He does not have the money. So I am paying him $20 an hour to help me with classes. We both win and no money will be exchanged.
I have many people coming to my school for free. I have many more that has not had their tuition raised in 9 years, even though my rent and operating expenses have gone up.
If a person comes home from the war over seas they can come to a my school for free for a time untill they can get back on their feet financially. Same goes for their family.
I get cheated every month by students. And I mean EVERY month.
I make the comittment to run a school full time when I left a good job. I dont see a problem asking for a comittment from a student.
I know what you are talking about. I have also been ripped off by instuctors.
I was up looking at the big water.
exactly, thats the problem, when you buy something you place monetary value on that item. like hey I bought this for 5 bucks and it broke! that sucks, but if someone gave it to you and it broke its no big deal. WHY the difference? because of the root of all evil… MONEY
I would like to think things cannot be bought, love, friends, knowldge, integrity, judges politicians… OK just kidding but you get the point. Some things just should not be bought.
awwwwwwwwwww big water,native american for Niagara Falls… I hope you went to the Canadian side and Clifton hill. America has nothing on Canada when it comes to the Falls. shame but all we have is the casino… and its owned by the naive maericans, goos for them, its about time we gave these people something back after taking over thier country.
Perhaps I am bit late for this coversation but I too would like to add my two cents. I am a student of 8 Step here in lovely Birmingham, Alabama. I have been with this group for almost two years now. We are a very small school, there are six of us regulars, including Sifu, and occasional others who come and go. My own contact with martial arts is admittedly limited (I do live in Alabama after all) but I’m no dummy. I started Yang taiji ten years ago, I have experience with Chen style and baqua, I spent time studying Shorin-ryu karate and some time doing a little Hung Gar. Most of this training has been with individuals. The Shorin-Ryu experience being my first contact with a school and an established system. There I witnessed a lot of infighting as various martial artists jockeyed over egos and status.
I can say in all honesty that my time spent with 8 Step has been immensely rewarding. My Sifu is a man of utmost integrity, who has earned my loyalty and trust. I feel the $40 a month I pay in dues to be absolutely worth the training I get. That training has paid off in many areas of my life, not only in terms of my other martial interests.
I do not know Grandmaster Shyun. I have not met him or any of the other Sifus in the 8 Step system. I do know my Sifu and I know that my Sifu is a product of Master Shyun’s training. That speaks highly of Master Shyun and for now is all I need to know. From what I’ve read in these posts it seems to me that Master Shyun’s greatest crime is trying to make a living from his art. It seems to me that most of us place such spiritual importance on our arts that we feel it must be sullied if it also brings us a paycheck.
Master Shyun is a non-native American trying to use American marketing techniques to perpetuate his art. Of course he would be clumsy about it, imagine your own efforts trying to sell hamburgers in Beijing or Taiwan. Exclusivity is the cornerstone of any major marketing campaign. “Buy it here! This is the only place you can get it!” If that’s not the case then we move to, “Buy it here! This is the best!” As Americans this is ingrained into how we do business. Why should Master Shyun be any different?
I have come to learn that money is a form of energy just like anything else. That a fair exchange of energy is how things are supposed to work in this life and that money has become our shorthand way of facillitating that exchange. Earth Dragon, you and others have show examples of other forms of exchange and these are valid.
Ed, you also point to Master Shyun accepting and perpetuating other forms of exchange. Perhaps his request for money and dues is a way of asking you to step up to a new level. Afterall, if you are able to pay these dues does that not mean that you are required to make more money (read raise your energy reserves)? To comfortably be able to pay increased dues means that you must raise your overall income to a new level. Is it bad to ask sifus to increase their overall abilities and not just their martial ones? Isn’t the hallmark of a good sifu a well rounded person, elevated in many areas of expertise not just fighting?
Bruce Lee did us a disservice liguistically when he introduced kung fu to mean martial art. Kung fu is hard work over time and applies to any area of expertise. My sifu exhibits kung fu in all aspects of his life. He’s one of the few men I look to and say, “Man, I want to be more like that.” If he looks to Master Shyun and sees a man worth following then I can rest confident that he is a man of merit and I am honored to be allowed to learn and help perpetuate his art.
Out of love for our arts,
Dave Hall
Welcome to the Forum Mighty Mungbean! 
May the bird of paradise never roost above your head. 
Hi dave,
Sounds like you are enjoying your classes, glad to hear it.
FTR, Taiwan uses American Marketing methods and know how to operate fast food places as well as many other businesses.
The only difference is that there is no red tape to slow you down.
EG. I opened some shops here. After a while the tax guy comes by, all by himself, and says you need to fill out these forms for taxes.
Me,“I just opened the place a couple of months, I’m not making a penny(he came by in downtime) I don’t have left over cash to pay taxes what kind of deal you people running?”
Him,“No hurry, when ever you have time just return these papers.”
Besides that it is a copy of American style methods.
Kevin
Friend’s questions
A friend asked some interesting questions. I will address them here.
<< I noticed you where planning on updating Grand Master Wei’s page, Firstly that is without a doubt the best 8 Step page I’ve seen,>>
Thank you.
<< I was wondering if there was more to the history,>>
For a start, there is Wei Xiaotang’s sonnet of his teachers and meetings with remarkable men.
<<as it was my understanding 8 step is an off shoot of Mei Hua,>>
I would phrase it differently. 8 step is descended from Jiang Hualong’s version of Mantis.
<< Also do you have any information on the Grand Master between Master Wei and Jian Hua Long, I believe his name was Feng Huan Yi.>>
Feng Haunyi taught Wei for several years.
As far as I know there is nothing more to say about Feng Huanyi unless some of the older students have some stories.
There is a story about feng Huanyi from Wei’s student Zuo Xianfu which I wrote up somewhere in the archives here.
On comparing notes of the same stories passed down to different people it can be seen that the changes with the retellings can be quite drastic. Not just for Mantis, but as a principle in general.
<< I’m very curious to the orgins, and factual accounts of the art (obviously the art itself as well). >>
Me too.
It has been my observation that the old school teachers don’t give a hoot about this.
Some teachers care for the effectiveness and will change it to suit them. How do we know this is true?
Mantis that descends from a common branch now has great variations.
The linking thread is based on the effectiveness of the method of fighting.
My Shifu told me that when he asked some of his shifus questions regarding history they had little care to answer.
In part because they weren’t schooled in the history of Mantis, becuase of not having read Huang Hanxun’s books and having only learned the art and skills orally.
Also, becuase they had recently left a devastating civil war. The civil war of China in conjunction with WW2 in China saw atrocities which makes the worst of Iraq look like a picnic.
Here is an example from my family:
One of my shiyes, Sun Longzai, told of how the soldiers had to dig shallow graves for those thought to be communists or enemies. Then the enemies had to crawl head first into the graves as dirt was shoveled over their heads. Their bodies were buried deep enough so that they couldn’t get out, but not so deep so that the soldiers could see them moving their legs for many hours.
“Why?” I asked.
“To save bullets.” I was told.
Don’t forget that those native to Shandong who came to Taiwan were KMT soldiers who had just been engaged in a horrible war lasting over 10 years pitting the Japanese, communists and KMT against each other.
After 1945, when WW2 was over the fighting between the communists and KMT continued on its bloody course for another four years.
Seeing how American’s in Iraq have difficulty dealing with returning to civilian life, so I have heard, imagine how difficult it must have been for the soldiers who made it to Taiwan.
Most of their family was missing or dead. their ancestral graves destroyed. A new province where the locals all spook a foriegn tongue making Chinese unintelligable to each other.
I believe that recalling the past wouldn’t be something they would choose to do for fun.
Also, not all the old masters had any desire to pass on their art. Some would pass it on to only one, while others took it to the grave.
Students of Eight Step are lucky in this rgard, as Master Wei taught ina more open fashion.
In the Mantis Rules of Pugilism it is said that you should find worthy disciples to transmit your art to, but for many masters in Taiwan this was just not possible.
But it is not all bad news. There were manuscripts of hundreds of pages which have been preserved in some branches of Mantis.
Wei Xiaotang didn’t have these, but he wrote out new manuscripts detailing his style.
Manuscripts for all his forms and weapons forms. methods of training. Attitude philosophy. Many written in sonnet form and almost completely unknown to the west.
I’ll start adding more of this to the web page.
From what I have seen and learned of 8 step Mantis, it matches closely other Mantis styles such as Mei hua, Mimen, Taiji, 7*, but each having their unique differences.
For the most part the differences are based on the master who taught the style.
So, to compare 8 Step to a style such as Mimen, at comparing forms they are drastically different, but in comparing fighting methods you would find that they are the same style based on the number of similarites.
This holds for 7*, Taiji and Meihua as well.
Kevin
Mungbean,
thank you for your post and you point of view. Fistly your sifu Peter ray, or baby face ray as they call him at the hospital is my dear friend and kung fu brother.
I have much respect for him, but realize he was not trained by master shyun directly and never lived in SF but did occasionaly vist shyun there. he actually learned form sifu dean economos my first sifu, before I learned directly frim Shyun. The last time I saw peter was many years ago in SF actually while doing his residence for plastic surgery.
I do not believe peter has ever voiced and opionon about the situation and remains neutral and just keeps on teaching for the love of kung fu and I respect that.
But while you do make some points perhaps you cannot evaluate the whole situation without having been there from the beginning and seen it turn into what it is now.
It is OK to make a living , but when you lie about who you are in order to get ahead in life then theres a problem.
Great post Kevin!
Paints a very clear picture and makes the fighting about lineage seem even more silly. There are much bigger problems in the world.
Earhdragon
Peole who lie always get caught or called on their claims. Seems this is the case.
mantid1,
very true, however when you lie once, to one person it hurts thier feelings.
However when you lie to hundreds for years it does more than just hurt feelings…
“However when you lie to hundreds for years it does more than just hurt feelings…” – Earth Dragon
Wow, that’s a quite an indictment. What were Master Shyun’s crimes again? Claiming to be the sole inheritor of Eight Step, charging $450 for a sifu’s uniform, charging yearly dues and not springing for pizza during sifu training. There was also a point mentioned about a lack of respect for Grandmaster Wei in not attending a grave tending ceremony.
I guess the only one’s worth mentioning are the claim for sole inheritorship and the lack of repect. All the rest allude to being cheap. Being cheap, no matter how unpleasant is no crime. Can anyone testify as to how he spends his money? Nigerian hookers? Cocaine? Weapons of Mass Destruction? If not, gee that sucks, it’d been nice to spring for the pies, especially since you guys were working so hard, but hardly worth slamming th e entire system.
I find it interesting in all this discussion that no one has mentioned what is well known in our school, that Master Shyun owes his life to Grandmaster Wei. Every biography I’ve seen, every history of Master Shyun, there’s even an entire chapter in Ancient Ways for Modern Times, tells of how Master Wei took a five year old Shyun bedridden and without hope and kept him for a year. Tending him and building his strength, Master Wei spent a year curing him with herbs, massage, accupuncture and qigong.
Before I go on I must point out someone mentioned Master Wei not having healing knowledge evidenced by his inability to heal himself late in life. This serves at least a minor source of contradiction. So I ask, does anyone have concrete evidence that the story of Master Wei healing a five year old Shyun is false?
Assuming, as I do, that the story of Shyun’s recovery is true, would you not agree then that that event would have triggered a deeper relationship between the two men? A sifu/student relationship is emotionally charged as it is (witness ED’s bitter feeling’s toward Master Shyun as evidence). How much more charged would that be if that Sifu were not only your first teacher (five is a highly impressionable age) but the man that saved your life? Especially, when no one else could. Given that I live as an outsider to this relationship I feel in no way qualified to comment on to what degree Master Shyun shows respect to GM Wei. I do, however, see how Master Shyun might feel a certain level of proprietariness to GM Wei. Given how I have already come to feel about my sifu, I can only imagine how Shyun might feel about Grandmaster Wei. I can certainly imagine the disgust with which he might view a bunch of kungfu geeks speculating and arguing over his relationship with Wei and the legtimacy of his claims.
I understand that there was at least one lawsuit dealing with Master Shyun’s proprietary claim. There was some minor squabbling about it but no one ever came forth to provide definitive closure. Our understanding, here in Birmingham, is that Master Shyun won his lawsuit and the right to claim sole inheritorship. If anyone can provide proof otherwise please let me know
Earth Dragon, I understand you have hurt feelings concerning master Shyun. I hear that you feel betrayed and let down by him. As a student of 8 Step, however, I don’t really like you dissing my style in such public manner unanswered. I have no emotional investment in Master Shyun, but I do have one in 8 step. I’m sure you’d understand were the situation reversed.
I make no claims that 8 Step Mantis is the best of anything. It is the best for me right now. I’m a better man for it and for as long as it provides that service it has my loyalty. Lineage is a source of history. It is a legacy of learning meant to inspire students, not be a source of “My master’s master could kick your master’s master’s ass.”
In light of this I offer full respect to the claims of Sifu John Chan and the other students of Master Wei. Whatever prize Master Shyun lays on being able to claim sole inheritorship I do not feel diminshes in anyway the knowledge gained as a student of Master Wei or the places held by these practitioners in the overall history of Mantis. Perhaps the first mistake was having touted “sole inheritor” as a prize worth having in the first place. As practitioners of kungfu we are perpetuators of an art. Our sole purpose in this regard is to insure that these arts live on. Emphasize your focus on your art and worry less over who’s who to whom. As far as I’m concerned the greatest merit of a cool lineage is being able to tell cool stories. Are we really willing to squabble so over who gets the coolest stories?
With Respect,
Dave
Good points. Maybe the grandmaster may have tried his chinese medicine and it didnt work. Then he tried the other style. Just because he may have known Chinese medicine does not mean it would work for his ailment or that he would live forvever. People still die in China.
Huh? 
Could someone translate?
Mighty Mungbean,
For the record I NEVER EVER “dissed” as you say 8 step. I love the system and still teach it everyday for the past 9 years.
I realize tht you are new to the system and have the right to defend your beliefs but please know the whole story before you chime into something on a public forum which as much below the surface.
Your feeding into the syhun sick child thing IS NOT TRUE. how do I know?
I met Shyuns father. and he laughed when I mentioned the story. he told me james had Pneumonia. Also he was not a general in the ROC army but a gardener in the local high school in taipei.
I met shyuns brother years beofre and the smae thing was brought up.
Master Wei did not know TCM nor was he a O.M.D
Shyun met master Wei when he was 8 years old not before.
master Wei never lived in the mountains. There are no liveable mountians in taiwan like there is in China.
So please dont just read shyuns website and be lead to beleive it is true.
One person said that wei taught them medicine, another said the he did know chinese medicine and did not try to heal himself with it when he was sick.
sorry to confuse you.
Mantid1
Yea, you almost sounded vasquez-like there for a moment. 
EarthDragon
No jab intended here, but what do you mean by there are no liveable mountains in Taiwan?
Yeah Yushan I know. Sometimes I throw a fast post it between sets (like now) and just dont seem to get the point accross.
No one listens to what others have to say on the forums anyway, so it doesnt matter 
yu shan,
In the city of Taipei, where james shyun lived, his story goes that master Wei lived in the mountains. From what I have been told by serveral people taiwanese and americans that live there or have visited there are no liveable mountains in that part of the country like there is in ROC.
Master Wei was a cook in the kitchen at the local high school he did not live like a hermit in the mountains miles away from the city.
Although the story sounds like that of a fictional martial art movie much of the history as taught by James shyun has many holes in it, but again we were all lead to beleive these stories for years … why wouldnt you believe everything your teacher tells you?
Again I love james shyun (my shrfu) and respect him for what he has taught me. I just want to tell the truth and set the stories straight.
I am not saying he is not a great teacher/father or martial artist. I am just telling the truth… be mad at me if you will but the truth is the tuth and no one can get mad at me for telling it… get mad at the guys who lie.
possibly kevin B could attest to the liveablility of the taipei mountains.
And do you think that even if master wei lived in a shack in the mountains and ate plain rice while meditating everyday he would ride his bike back and forth 40 miles to work at the school everyday?
???
“I find it interesting in all this discussion that no one has mentioned what is well known in our school, that Master Shyun owes his life to Grandmaster Wei. Every biography I’ve seen, every history of Master Shyun, there’s even an entire chapter in Ancient Ways for Modern Times, tells of how Master Wei took a five year old Shyun bedridden and without hope and kept him for a year.”
Is there any proof of that? A picture mabey, Some friends of Master Wei’s that can back that, or did Master Wei not talk to anyone for that entire year?