Basically the term Grandmaster (zong shi or zung si) is an honorific conferred to an exceptional martial artist by his peers for innovations in their art, teaching, legacy, thought leadership, etc.
This is not the same as grand master, my master’s master.
The rankings/titles “grand master”, “great grand master”, etc. only make sense within the context and confines of your own school/lineage. One would only introduce the practioner as “sifu”, even though he may be your sigung, etc.
This is not to say that these terms should not be used, but that they should be qualified by the relationship; e.g. “may I present Wong sifu, who is also my grand master”.
The point I was trying to make was that the English translations of terms like sigung into “grand master” confuses it with the term “grandmaster”.
“Grandmaster” (zong shi/zung si) is an honorific bestowed on outstanding individuals who have made significant contributions to their art in one way or another.
“Grand master” is just your master’s master and should only be used in the context of your school/lineage.
Even with all these grand titles, a teacher despite their seniority would still only be introduced as Sifu such-and-such to a third party (i.e. someone outside of your school/lineage). Whereas in Western circles (and in these forums), people are being addressed as grandmaster this and greatgrandmaster that.
They should just be called sifu which in itself is a term of great respect given to the teacher by his students, peers and community.
Many people translate Sifu as “master”, which also bugs the shiznit out of me. [/B]
Exactly, in our usage of japanese terms I am a sensei, or Chinese I am a sifu. I am far from being a master yet.
If I am still posting here when that time comes I’ll have to change my username to something cool. You could be Master MasterKiller. That has a nice jingle to it.
Actually, sifu implies a fatherly type relationship where you live with your teacher and he supports you.
I have had senseis and sifus (they were white guys and demanded I called them sifu but my Chinese teacher insists that I don’t because he’s not: see above). I call my teacher master now because he is. He’s the fourth generation Imperial Palace Ba Gua under grand master Wong and the inventor of E-chuan … I think it does him injustice to put him on the same level as my other teachers.
He only asks to be called coach or teacher. Some people can’t even bring themselves to do that and address him by name which ****es me off.
I think this leads to another thread: how many have Chinese teachers? It’s a great exeprience, even going to lunch and learning about tea, and how to pore it in regard to seniority. I like it.
Originally posted by EvolutionFist He only asks to be called coach or teacher. Some people can’t even bring themselves to do that and address him by name which ****es me off.
Oh heck yeah. I have some fellow students that have known my teacher half the time that I have that will call him by his name. That really gets under my skin.
I would prefer teacher to coach. Coach makes it sound like it is a sport, in my opinion. And I see the MMA guys calling their teachers coaches.
Well, he does coach me. When I have my gloves on and shielding blows and he corrects my elbow position and what not, that’s coaching.
But with martial arts it does go so much deeper. I learn so much – martially – just from him talking about life experiences. He has given me great advice probbaly without even knowing it.
The student/teacher relationship in MA is unique I think.
Originally posted by EvolutionFist
[B]He only asks to be called coach or teacher. Some people can’t even bring themselves to do that and address him by name which ****es me off.
I think this leads to another thread: how many have Chinese teachers? It’s a great exeprience, even going to lunch and learning about tea, and how to pore it in regard to seniority. I like it. [/B]
I couldn’t even imagine a student calling my teacher by his name. This isn’t because he ought to have every student’s respect. It’s because he has every student’s respect. This is partially because of his reputation, partially because of the quality of his instruction, and partially because of the fact that he is Chinese. And yes, it is really cool to have a teacher who was born and trained in China. I suppose it makes it seem much more “authentic” to everybody.
I remember a point not long ago where I was casually talking to another student of his and he came over to us, joined our conversation, and casually mentioned “you know, they never just stand around in China. They practice.” That was an eye-opener.
Si Fu in its modern meaning simply means a skilled person.
Basically at any trade. And as someone mentioned it is a sign of respect.
The term is actually composed of the characters Si which means Teacher and Fu which means father.
So it’s literal meaning is Teacher-Father.
As someone mentioned this may have had to do with old school apprenticeship type arrangements. Where you would actually live with your Master while you were studying WHATEVER he had to teach you.
He was your teacher but also your father in a way since you shared the same house.
Si Gung simply means the person that taught your teacher.
Si Daai Gung is the person that taught your teachers teacher.
Si Daai Daai Gung is the person that taught your teacher’s teacher’s teacher.
Ad nauseum.
Si Jo refers to the founder of your style or branch or whatever.
Or sometimes Si Jo can refer to the oldest living member of your style. For example, we call my Si Gung’s teacher Si Jo even though he is obviously not the founder of our style.
Does anyone know what Gung refers to in the expression Si Gung? I haven’t been able to figure that one out.
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