No doubt BJJ is well versed, perhaps the most eloquent, when it comes to the ground. But I have to take note of "assume the worst–that you are taken down. "
This would lead one to believe that BJJ only goes down as a last resort. Now, using the measure of BJJ sucess, NHB, I would like to revist that. Exhibit A: H Gracie staying on his back during the match with the Japanese fellow as his apponant begged for him to stand so he could continue his beating. Even kicking him like a dog and doing cartwheels over him.
Now, he was not forced to the ground in that situation, he chose it. So frustrated was he, that he spat at his appoant (very poor taiste and a bad example of sportmanship and of his dojo). My point, one plays how they practice.
I actually think learning BJJ will hurt a serious Chinese martial artist. Why? Because the ground becomes an option then. Yes, it is, but take Hsing-I. Stepping backward is always a potentialoty, but not an potion. Liike fighting on a cliff’s edge, there is only forward. When someone shoots, I believe tryong to play their game, looking for a hold, is a weakness, simply beat the man. If he can touch you, he should be hitting you. A nice uppercut (several) is a simple affective defense against a shooter.
If it goes to the ground, then play your game either on your back (amazing how so many have no power when punching from their back, they just massage the other;s back) or from on top.
Over the last eight years, I have done quite a bit of work in combining the ground game of BJJ with knifefighting. You might be surprised at how BJJ ground strategies can be applied on the street against multiple opponents- especially if you have a blade.
Weird, I was just talking about something like this with a buddy, talking about grappling and prison shanking tactics/situations.
I think that a very dangerous person would be one that combined a practical street wrestling/grappling background with knifework and fighting dirty tricks. IMHO I mean standup grappling, not intricate chin-na locking, but larger compound standup principles, and certain takedowns coupled with positional strategy, distraction and direct ruthlessness.
Sounds like a interesting experiment. I have worked on one using a headhold and I enjoy a tactic called the bulldog or prison yard rush.
Actually, I remember JWT saying that he found the ground a very safe place to be when he was sparring against two guys at the same time. He admitted being wrong when he blasted that idea a year or so before that happened.
Look, I dont by any means think I know everything, or even a lot , but Im at home sick, and this thread is annoying me. So…do you try and outrun a grizzly, or climb a tree, play dead etc? Do you try and outswim a shark, or just get out of the water ? Do you try and dunk on Shaquille O’Neil, or shoot outside? Do you try and outpunch a western boxer, or use your feet, takedown? Do you try and outgrapple a grappler, or stay on your feet? If someone who has studied bjj the same amount of time, with the same intensity as I have studied Kung fu, gets me on the ground and cant get the advantage, then something is wrong. Why go toward someones strength? Whatever. Who gives a f***. :rolleyes:
Hasn’t this whole topic been done to death?
Isn’t it amazing how one silly little troll can start such a long thread?
Where did MerryPrankster study English?
What do they put in ewallace’s water?
These question and more will be answered in the next episode of “BJJ vs CMA”…
SIMON: After reading the performance between KOPE and MERRYPRANKSTER. I have to say to KOPE…unfortunately to consider you as an AMERICAN MARTIAL ARTIST IDOL would be a disaster! The fact that u stated that BJJ stylist gets their BB in 4 years states the ignorance.
PAULA: U don’t have to take that KOPE. But what u should take is BJJ. Try those 108 ground fighting techs…might work on the MOOK JONG…but try it on a resisting opponent.
The Search for an AMERICAN MARTIAL ARTIST IDOL continues…
What do you mean by groundfighting? Do you mean pins and flowing into a submission from standing technique, or do you mean positional dominance/escapes and sweeps combined with ground submissions?
FWIW I’m an avid kungfu fan and have looked sincerely for it, but have never seen any of the latter in CMAs. Just FWIW with regards to issues brought up in this thread.
Similarly FWIW, studying BJJ doesn’t mean you advocate going to the ground, even if every single other BJJ practitioner does. Just again, with regards to issues brought up in this thread.
Black Jack, I definitely agree that a person makes the difference in the art. However, I do feel that certain arts can address things more properly then another. Especially if they specialize in it. So in that sense, even if you’re a person who’s “not the best practitioner” of a martial art… you can maybe at least get some kind of an advantage from techniques that specialize in certain areas over others…
but then again some people, whether it be a lazy attitude to hard training or just physical genetics, just can’t use techniques whether they be kung fu or BJJ so…
I think we may be argueing with a highschool kid here.
But he raises an interesting topic. Let me start by saying what BJJ lacks (BTW, most of the top bjj guys…who truly know the sport, would agree).
BJJ’s stand up skill are laughable. True, bjj fighters like Renzo, Rickson, Mario Sperry, Ralph Gracie, etc. etc. have displayed eccelent stand up skills. But, those are exceptions and not the rule. Also, most of these guys have cross trained in boxing and Muay Thai. I have seen plenty of bjj guys training in shooto and Muay Thai down in my gym. My bjj instructor trains in Brazil several times a year (spends about 4 months out of year there), but also studies Judo and boxing.
BJJ lacks any decent self defense skills. Lets face it, BJJ practitioners want to take you to the ground. The ground is the last place you’d want to be in an altercation with a gang banger who has several friends. Oh, and a knife can certainly pass a guard.
BJJ has self defense techniques from old Japanese jj, which have been watered down for years. No weapons self defense skills.
BJJ’s success on the street, depends heavily on the turain.
As for multiple apponents, this is not a topic of style. It’s an issue of training. I have seen instructors (wont mention names…once got into trouble for doing that though I meant well) who actually drill grappling against multiple apponents. I have also seen instructors who have students put on grappling gloves and spar full contact against more than one apponent, and if the fight went to the ground, so be it. The object was to last and escape. My shooto instructor was a purple belt under J.J. Machado, and he not only had us grapple multiple people, he had us grapple with kali sticks from time to time (a drill he learned while training under Dan Inosanto for several years). Across the street from where I live is a Kung Fu school which produces some of the best kickboxers in town. I have seen them spar full contact against multiple apponents on occasion. I have also seen bjj schools which only teach ground work (mostly starting from knees on the ground…NOT GOOD!!!). I have seen BJJ schools only teach Gi grappling. I have seen BJJ schools which only stress sport bjj point scoring.
Lets face it, on the street there is no such thing as the open guard. On the street, where punching are a factor, most sport bjj techniques will fail. Some bjj schools are as one dementional as some Kung Fu schools. One just has to find quality instruction. The worst master is the one who says that his art is the best, and wont listen to reason. I prefer to train from instructors who konw what they lack and compensate for their weaknesses.
MA fanatic
Originally posted by MA fanatic
BJJ has self defense techniques from old Japanese jj, which have been watered down for years. No weapons self defense skills.
BJJ’s success on the street, depends heavily on the turain.
MA fanatic
What are you talking about man? If you train BJJ you’re really training in GJJ and the Gracie system, whether it be Machado, Caique, or whoever. If you learned real BJJ then you learned various knife, gun and club disarms. Who do you train BJJ under? Every BJJ beginner of Gracie lineage (which is every BJJ player) learns basic standing self defense. There are strikes included and even side kicks, so what are you spouting?
That’s the thing about these d u m b a s s forums. Everybody claims this and that, but they don’t know s h i t from shinola! They are usually speculating about something that they have a “feeling” about. No use of executive brain function, just emotional banter and echoing! Blind me with science and facts geniuses. I swear to God that I’ll keep dissin’ you fools, 'cause that’s what Reality implores me to do.
If you stick with any decent MA or combat sport for a significant amount of time (3+ times/week, 1.5 hrs each session, for 5+ years), no Joe Blow average street sucker could hang with you; if push came to shove! Most hardcore fighters will kick a hobbyists arse any day of the week. Royce proved this in the first UFCs. I’ll be the first to tell you that the quality of opponents wasn’t necessarily top notch, and that it was a way for Rorion to advertise his family’s art to the world, but not one of you guys could hang with Ken Shamrock, Shooto champ days, or now. Royce made very quick work of him in their first fight, and he was severly outmatched by Shamrock in the size and strength department. One was a master and the other a perpetual journeyman who relied on his physicality and average knowledge of NHB fighting. That’s it end of discussion. Please shut your traps.
BTW, Royce will be fighting in a duel Pride/K1 event in Tokyo on Sept.28. The guy he is fighting is bigger than him and is an olympic judo gold medalist. It is strictly submission grappling; no face strikes (strikes in general?) allowed. This will settle the Judo vs. BJJ debate. They are similar, but then again there are significant differences in approach. It will be interesting.
OK. Let me ask you this:Can you cross train to the point that you are familiar with anything that someone could possibly throw at you? Will you then be any good at any of them, or a master of none? How about you make them fight your fight? Its not that I completely disagree with you, but Im coming from a different point of view. Instead of worrying about what the opponent is going to do, make them worry about what your going to do! If you have a brain tumor, are you going to let your pcp operate, or a neurosurgeon?
BTW Im not taking sides for or against bjj. I study kung fu, but I respect all styles and anyone who trains their ass off!
Well, most styles:rolleyes:
First of all, I have never stated anything negative against the Gracie family and/or any members of them. I am familiar, as I’m sure everyone on this forum, that Brazilian Jiujitsu originated with the Gracie family. As a matter of fact, it is an evolving art. New stradegies and techniques are being developed and perfect every year. When I talked about my instructor, I simply mentioned the name Machado because that is where he trained. I said nothing but good things about the guy. Since it wasn’t part of my point, I didn’t want to get into the family relations between Machados and their cousins the Gracies. I have posted numerous times that the Gracie system is made up of sport jiujitsu, gi and no gi grappling, self defense, and vale tudo training. I have also posted numerous times that members of the Gracie family have been in confrontations on the street, and have proved that their style works. I also posted about a member of the Gracie family who successfully fended off 5 attackers (caught on tape). My point was, if you reread what I wrote, is that all arts have holes. Gracie knife defenses, gun defenses, and club defenses are not top notch. There are arts who specialize in that area with techniques light years ahead of BJJ (which did in fact get those techniques from jj). I wouldn’t go to a BJJ school to learn knife defenses, no more than you would pay a wing chun master to teach you his ground grappling skills. As for Royce, the man is a great fighter. This has nothing to do with him.
MA fanatic
I think someone misunderstood my point about Royce’s measuring kick against Shamrock. In the second fight, Shamrock (who outweight Royce by 30lbs…if not more), couldn’t tap our a 176lb guy wearing a gi. The entire fight was both of them swinging on the ground. Had the fight continued, most likely Shamrock would have won. The first time both met, Shamrock was King of Pancrase in Japan, and was in fact easily defeated via choke from Royce (he went for an ankle crank which Royce escaped). But, my post had nothing to do with the outcome of the fight or who was the better man. In the second fight Shamrock counter hit Royce just as Royce tried to measure out a shooting distance. Does that mean that Royce would lose in other fights? NO. I’m sure he’s smart enough to know which fighter has a clue about such techniques and which fighter does not. I must say that Royce proved one important thing to the American Martial Arts community: If two equally skilled people meet one trained in pure grappling and one in pure striking, grappler will win.
MA fanatic
