You said that you teach Northern Shaolin, may I ask what line?
I’m pretty sure SiuHung does not mean competition only in a sporting sense. I know him personally and would say that he definately does not fall in the “sport school” category.
Competition (sporting or otherwise) is pretty essential for development nowadays since challanges are pretty much outlawed (and outdated), which brings me back to the original question of what line of NS you teach? There’s plenty of NS masters and scools that entered competition (some still do) and did extremely well and these schools I would not categorize as “sport schools”.
Competition, whithin the right venue, can be very good for the students and teacher as they can exchange knowledge, viewpoints and experience with others that are like-minded (not with the closed-minded ones of course ) the teacher can also network and broaden their horizons with other teachers to understand other styles and ultimately understanding their own.
OK dude, let’s have a gun fight, you can have your 1911 45 caliber revolver and I’ll use the 50 caliber sniper rifle. Problem for you, I can hit you at 10 times the distance you can hit me. But your weapon is the “traditional one” :eek:
The last retreat of the desperate, you’re not a “sport school”, ie you never have to confront the inefficiencies of your method when confronted in competition by those training in more modern methods…
People who aren’t living in Shaolin temples in the sky know who I am and what my students are known for… who are you?
But you are comparing apples and oranges. Of course you can hit him from 10 times the distance… you are using a frickin’ sniper rifle! Give him a sniper rifle circa WW1 and it would be much more relevant challenge. And there are snipers in this world that prefer the older models to the new fangled ones. Why? Because it’s what they were trained on in the backfields of whatever country they are from. Again, it’s preference.
This argument is getting on the ugly side, so I will bow out with a few final comments.
My sifu’s original intention with this post was to see how many others out there spar without pads and full contact, and to see if anyone could suggest to him why he would want to change. Although it seemed he was defensive, really he was just arguing to get more information and to get more eloquent responses.
Which he did, and we both discussed the merits of the various responses at class last night. Some of them we thought were well-stated, and honestly convinced our class that future students will have the option to wear headgear and mouthguards should they wish to.
However, trying to state that our style of training is outdated is complete opinion. Stick to the martial art realms, and try and get away from this philosophical trend you’ve been building. This is not about healthcare and weaponry from thousands of years ago. It is about the martial arts, and how they have been trained in the past, and the traditions that are still alive today. Some are good, and some are not as good. But to say that something is worthless because it is traditional just doesn’t make any sense. NOR does it make any sense to say that something has worth BECAUSE it is traditional. I know that. I am basing my worth of our sparring system for what it has done for me, and how I have seen the other students in my classes respond to the training.
If you’re sparring “full contact” with no pads once a week with no serious injuries that prevent you from sparring again, then either our definitions of “full contact” differ drastically, or you hit like complete girls.
In the past my students have had to defend themselves in true life all of use did fine.
There are plenty of people with no training whatsoever who’ve had to defend themselves in “true life” and done fine, so that’s not really much of an argument.
well there is alott to answer here first of I would like to thank my Si suke for voicing his opinions on this post … thank you crazylegs. Second fATHERDOG this was never an argument I apologize if you thought we were having one. And I belive it was you sevenstar that asked my line and style. These are the styles I have ben trained in I spelt the Chinese names faneticaly for eiser pronounciation not that induividuals such as yourself would need it.
KUNG FU:
Silum kung fu from wong jackman
Dale freeman and Roy sorvari.
CHI KUNG:
Ping Si yu
Madam Min ou Yang
Dale Freeman
Roy sorvari
Tai Chi:
Ping Si YU
Madam Min ou Yang
Dale Freeman
Roy Sorvari
Yi Quan :
Wang chian chi
Ping Si yu
MIn Ou Yang
Dale freeman
Roy sorvari
Meditation and buddha:
Thich Knhat Han
Buddha
Sifu
Tai Sifu
Dali Lama
Mom
Anyway I belive that this post is being mis read by some of the readers All I wanted was advice and I now have it. Here is my line thanks guys and feel free to e- mail me I will check the post later though.
Most Kenpo systems have their practitioners pull their punches when and if they spar. Being out of reach when hitting is the direct result of this, not the use of protective equipment.
Using equipment allows you to hit with full force through your target. This develops an incredible amount of speed and power. Boxers, who use gloves and, sometimes, headgear, hit harder and faster than just about any other strikers. This is a direct result of using protective equipment.
OK dude, let’s have a gun fight, you can have your 1911 45 caliber revolver and I’ll use the 50 caliber sniper rifle. Problem for you, I can hit you at 10 times the distance you can hit me. But your weapon is the “traditional one”
This paragraph is the result of NYC gun laws. Please help stamp out bad gun laws.
A discussion in which disagreement is expressed; a debate.
A quarrel; a dispute.
Archaic. A reason or matter for dispute or contention: “sheath’d their swords for lack of argument” (Shakespeare).
1. A course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating truth or falsehood: presented a careful argument for extraterrestrial life.
2. A fact or statement put forth as proof or evidence; a reason: The current low mortgage rates are an argument for buying a house now.
3. A set of statements in which one follows logically as a conclusion from the others.
Your statement, " In the past my students have had to defend themselves in true life all of use did fine.", was a “statement put forth as proof or evidence” that your training methods are sound. I was noting that this is fallacious reasoning.
I would definately recommend adding good quality gear to your sparring, at least for 1 night a week or something to get used to it. With gear you really can spar harder, push it, go full out with less injuries so you can train more often. And you can really put pressure with head shots on that you wouldnt be used to otherwise, and that can add more realism than lack of gear and going lighter.
For gear, what kind of gear you get and use definately matters. If you get cheap foam tkd school type stuff like tiger-claw, etc, then yes, the gear is awkward, distracting and in the way. Go with 16 oz quality boxing gloves from ringside, fairtex, reyes, etc, use olympic-style leather boxing headgear, shock-doctor type mouthpiece, thai style shin pads…
You can still do a lot of hard sparring with no gear, its not like its one or the other so you keep that too, but by integrating good gear you can do valuable drills and sparring that you otherwise cannot safely do without, and there is value in that.
Anyway, thats my take on the matter. Have a good weekend.
Mutant thank you for the sugestion i really will check out the gear…and forgive me for not knowing your name yet but the kenpo master could not I repeat I would stand still and he would and could not hit me. He should have taken my head off.
I’m very sorry, but IF us Choy Lay Fut players decided one day. . … . .
“Hey, let’s spar NO RULES and NO GEAR!!!” We’d be in the hospital by now.
Chop Choys to the neck, face, throat, temples, solar plexus, sternum, groin, ribs. . . . . . . etc. . . . . are meant to rake and crush parts of the human body. I don’t think I want that to happen.
Sao Choys to the neck = a VERY strong chance of a broken neck. Sao Choys to anywhere else usually leads to something else getting screwed up. And unlike Thai kicks, the surface area is smaller, so greater pressure. . . . . and thai kicks don’t come down on your collarbone, and are usually too big to specifically aim for the neck, whereas a Sao Choy is faster, has increased pressure, and is more precise.
How about 5 animal stuff? Tiger claws to the face? Crane strikes to weak spots? I don’t think people would enjoy living very much after that.
Sparring without gloves can be done. Sparring without rules SHOULD NEVER BE DONE. Unless you want someone dead, that is.
I don’t plan on walking out of class with a cracked rib every time.
The only problem I have with that suggestion is that boxing gloves limit the amount of grabbing and grappling you can do. But if you only do the boxing gloves a couple of times a week and train grabbing throwing on other days I think it’s a pretty good idea.
LKFM is right, a 1,000 years ago is 1,000 years ago. You have gear today! Use it.
You and your men need to decide what level of contact is suitable for now. I think the best is to fight 80% speed, 50% power at first and have someone break the action if it becomes too one sided.
Little by little your men will enjoy this and naturally want to push it. Before you know it, no gear, full contact is the only way to get that same feeling. Or lack of feeling and just being there.
…
Regarding the deadly shots. Many shots can be harmful to ones’s health. But can the shots land against the trained fighter. That is the whole point. No doubt me kicking you in the balls will hurt … but can I kick you, a trained martial artist, so easily in the balls?
Yes, good point. mma gloves are good too so you can use grappling, but boxing gloves allow you to go even harder with head shots so they serve a purpose as well. Implementing both is probably good.
I can understand what the gentleman is saying to a point… he is not teaching San Da so maybe he doesn’t have to train that way. Who knows his system better than he does? He was trained, so he may know what’s the best way to get his system’s flavor across.
Hell, I have guys on here telling me I need to run 5 miles and lift weight and jump rope and eat broiled chicken … and I do if I want to put boxing gloves on and trade blows in a ring.
Can I go fight in the ring? I think I could IF I started to condition like that but that doesn’t interest me. I’d rather wait for the champ outside and see if he wants to fight for his medal.
The problem we have here is MMA guys are telling Kung Fu guys how to train … and it appears a lot of them are stupid enough to listen. And it goes both ways. A Hung Gar guy better get big and strong to use that kind of technique … he shouldn’t be listening to a taiji guy talking about absorbing and relaxing. Don’t tell the BJJ guy to train his Phoenix Eye punch.
In the end there’s only one way to determine if any of the training is right … and that’s free fighting. Competition is a great format. But that can be as much as a trap as traditional training … figthing guys the same exact weight as you with 10 or 12 oz gloves and head gear … that can promote a lot of unhealthy trading of blows, conditioning, etc, over technique.
Let’s not forget, martial arts is not a sport. It’s kill or be killed. And you have to summon that if the guy is 170 or 280.
I don’t need to shoot someone to know that the gun can kill. Maybe this gentleman has similar training … who here can say for sure over the internet. If it really makes someone lose sleep, go and play with them and find out for sure. But I think it’s in poor taste to slander someone over the net, especially in front of their students.
i read in one of the previous threads that you have “tested your skills” against Hung Ga students and succeeded against them. Where were these students from (NYC) and what school? I m just interested in knowing.
I agree. But, is there such a thing as too hard? Does it lead to injuries like this if you never practice without gear and suddenly you find yourself in a street fight?
) the teacher can also network and broaden their horizons with other teachers to understand other styles and ultimately understanding their own.