History for me, it is just a vehicle to probe what is WCK and how deep the art of WCK has been. HIstory is a track record.
Politics for me , It cannot be avoidable because everyone/human, me include, has the desire to control others and desire to lead disregard of one’s ability.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;897311]Politics for me , It cannot be avoidable because everyone/human, me include, has the desire to control others and desire to lead disregard of one’s ability.[/QUOTE]So you’re saying you cannot control yourself?
[QUOTE=Matrix;897314]So you’re saying you cannot control yourself?[/QUOTE]
how do you relate this question to my post above?
How do you surrender what you cannot control?
When you say something is unavoidable, you are saying you are not in control. You say you want to control others, to lead and yet you cannot see that your desire to control others is wrong. Suspend that desire to control, and see and hear what others are telling you. You might learn something.
Peace,
Bill
[QUOTE=Matrix;897321]How do you surrender what you cannot control?
When you say something is unavoidable, you are saying you are not in control.
You say you want to control others, to lead and yet you cannot see that your desire to control others is wrong.
Suspend that desire to control, and see and hear what others are telling you. You might learn something.
Peace,
Bill[/QUOTE]
Great logical thinking, have you try it ? and how does it works out for you?
How do you surrender what you cannot control? ----
For me, the WCK kuen kuit has shown clearly. " comes accept, Goes let it go back… using silence to lead action".
That is surrender and flow without needs to control. This is a part of Chinese Daoism culture of Wu-wei wu-pu-wei. (Doing nothing but nothing left undone.).
Thus, to forget history and politics one needs to forget oneself first.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;897326]Great logical thinking, have you try it ? and how does it works out for you?.[/QUOTE] Yes, it works well. Thank you for asking. It’s not always easy, but with time it seems to get better. Work in progress…
[QUOTE=Hendrik;897326]For me, the WCK kuen kuit has shown clearly. " comes accept, Goes let it go back… using silence to lead action".[/QUOTE]It’s a great saying. Have you tried it? 
[QUOTE=Matrix;897328]
It’s a great saying. Have you tried it? ;)[/QUOTE]
As I updated my post above, it is an ancient chinese culture, many have tried it over the passed hundreds of years, thus, it is still exist today.
[QUOTE=Matrix;897328]
It’s a great saying. Have you tried it? ;)[/QUOTE]
As I updated my post above, it is an ancient chinese culture, many have tried it over the passed hundreds of years and still practiced today, thus, it is exist today. It is a part of reality and not subject to my experience.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;897330]It is a part of reality and not subject to my experience.[/QUOTE]Well I guess that says it all, doesn’t it.
Thank you,
Bill
Leave it to Hendrik to start talking about ancient Chinese culture and his inability to stop trying to control other people on a thread entitled: “Forget the History, Forget the Politics”…:rolleyes:
What a forum! 
Politics for me , It cannot be avoidable because everyone/human, me include, has the desire to control others and desire to lead disregard of one’s ability.
It is only arguable that everyone wants to control others, and certainly not true that everyone has trhe desire to lead.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;897338]Leave it to Hendrik to start talking about ancient Chinese culture and his inability to stop trying to control other people on a thread entitled: “Forget the History, Forget the Politics”…:rolleyes:
What a forum! [/QUOTE]
There is a different between
a, presenting and pointing toward what exist in the chinese culture and different alternative of living
and,
b, getting into the egoistic self righteous loop of “you are the bad guy, you do it to me, …”
As a human, it takes time to experience and learn both.
However, those who dont know history will not be able to know what is the different between the WCK ancestors’ culture compare with today’s pop believe of egoistic self righteous looping .
Thus, It is not a "forget the History " issue, what needs to be solve is an Educational issue. To educate people upto the level of knowing what is going on and when to and when not to use history.
I say it is a “forget the history” issue.
Reveling in ancient Chinese history and culture is what is holding CMA in general and wing chun in particular back.
If one is studying wing chun because it is A MARTIAL ART - then one needs to get with the training methods and strategies of the 21ft century - because this is where you are.
If on the other hand the “ancient Chinese Culture and history thing” is a means of TRYING TO CONTROL PEOPLE…
you can stick it, because I’m not the least bit interested. And I suspect that the same applies to many people.
Vic, curious what you’d have to say regarding this clip at a workshop:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ3XpvFA4h0&feature=related
Personally, I think this is a cool clip and I find the information very interesting! I think it’s great to hear perspectives of history from other WC families/lineages to go along with training (or in general over a cup of tea).
Just wondering if you think all this ‘history talk’ at a workshop is a big waste of time as well? Or if this is also a means of ‘controlling people’? :rolleyes:
Any historical lecture component of a workshop that is more than 5 minutes long is a ripoff unless the lecture is advertised ahead of time.
“Vic, curious what you’d have to say regarding this clip at a workshop…” (JP)
***HERE’S what I have to say about that. Have attended countless William Cheung public seminars over the last 25+ years (as well as numerous private seminars, lunches, dinners, have had private lessons, etc.)…
and I can say categorically that 99 of William Cheung’s seminars, lessons, etc. are spent actually doing wing chun.
Do I have a problem with the other 1%? Of course not. A certain amount of “history” is relevant.
But it’s a question of how much, now isn’t it?!
And the theme of this thread is that too many people spent an inordinate amount of time going over the history, and therefore, by necessity, the politics of wing chun. Around and around, again and again.
Instead of actually doing it.
In my view, WCK history is not really a problem. The problem is that what is typically presented as “history” – legends, stories, myths, marketing, etc. – is not genuine history. So I think the answer should not be to “forget WCK history”, but rather to concern ourselves with developing the discernment to separate true history from the rest. However, to do that requires education, critical thinking skills, etc.
But I do agree with Victor insofar as we need to keep history in its place. “History” – whether genuine or not – does not provide validation for one’s theories (which is for the most part how WCK “history” is misused). The only validation for a fighting or training method is results.
t niehoff post
Agree with it as currently stated.
joy Chaudhuri
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;897630]and I can say categorically that 99 of William Cheung’s seminars, lessons, etc. are spent actually doing wing chun.[/QUOTE]
Being that it’s an 8:35 clip, if that’s just 1% of the workshop, it must have been one heckova long workshop
Now, I’d agree with anyone that says you should spend a good amount of time training physically, that’s a no-brainer. And it seems we both agree history has it’s place, the question indeed is: how much?
Who’s to say? Some people prefer just to train with the time they have, or they only have an hour a day, so that’s all they even have time for. Good for them!
Then, there’s some people that devote thier whole lives to MA’s, WC or otherwise (meaning, it’s thier only job). And some even go the extra mile to travel the world to learn everything they can about the art they loves. Who are we to say what is too much? From which perspective? Just yours? Just mine?
If someone has the recourses and time to train and teach full-time as well as research, write, visit with different lines, families, lineages, etc to both learn the physical as well as the history, stories, whatever, good for them too!
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;897630]And the theme of this thread is that too many people spent an inordinate amount of time going over the history, and therefore, by necessity, the politics of wing chun. Around and around, again and again.
Instead of actually doing it.[/QUOTE]
Who are these ‘too many people’ you talk about anyway?
fwiw, I don’t see history and politics necessarily going hand-and-hand unless one’s ego gets involved. Say I go talk to person A from a never-heard-of line of WC and they give me a background story that is different or contradicts person B’s. And person B gets all upset because I share the story. The problem isn’t on me, and it’s not on person A, it’s on person B. Is B right and A wrong? Is the middle man at fault for sharing findings?
As I see it, the theme of this thread only promotes more politics. 'Specially if we think about the real reason this thread was created
Want to encourage positivity? I think that’s going to happen when people let go thier egos and forget trying to say what’s right/wrong, or who spends too much time doing what, and worrying about what everyong else is doing. IMO, that’s politics!
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;897634]In my view, WCK history is not really a problem. The problem is that what is typically presented as “history” – legends, stories, myths, marketing, etc. – is not genuine history. So I think the answer should not be to “forget WCK history”, but rather to concern ourselves with developing the discernment to separate true history from the rest. However, to do that requires education, critical thinking skills, etc. [/QUOTE]
Good point. Funny you use the words ‘genuine’ or ‘true’. How do you plan to discern what is or isn’t? Or even suggest one do that? please continue..
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;897634]But I do agree with Victor insofar as we need to keep history in its place. “History” – whether genuine or not – does not provide validation for one’s theories (which is for the most part how WCK “history” is misused). The only validation for a fighting or training method is results.[/QUOTE]
You’re mixing several seperate things together and treating them as one. History is just that - history. Then you talk about validating theories. But then finish talking about fighting or training methods and results. Are you trying to say that the only way to validate history is through physical results? Historical topics (fact or otherwise) don’t really have anything to do with results from training. Kinda sill if you ask me.