For those styles that emphasize the centre line (and bridging)

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Ok I could have posted this in the southern or wing chun forums (well maybe not the wing chun forum lol) but I wanted to ask how have those of you that train a style that is predominantly concerned with attacking and defending the centre line (which usually goes hand in hand with some form of bridge/sticking work) adapted or changed your style to take into account that most modern confrontations in the west are with people who do not prescribed to the centre line theory (don’t seek or put out a bridge) and are more likely to be throwing hooks, upper cuts and overhands than attacks down the centre? And are more likely to clinch and hit/throw than trap and stick?

Before anyone in general (or someone in particular mentioning no names herre….) says real TCMA does not need to change and has it all I do know that southern styles have gone through this process in the past: That when the lama guys were winning their challenges matches in the south styles like the village hung gar changed a lot to take into account the new long hand strikes and the total lack of a bridge to work off (indeed hung gar and CLF actually adopted a lot of these strikes into their systems) so I was wondering what other styles were doing to take into account the modern environment?

And if you aren’t changing the style are you and have you changed how you train and who you train against? For example its one thing to say we train to defend against hooks and overhands thrown by class colleagues who have never boxed or done a long hand style but quite another to bring in a boxer, CLF or kick boxer to train against.

How do you ensure your guys are prepared for modern strikers? I know some hakka and southern arts were taught after one already had a grasp on a longer range style, learning bakmei or dragon after getting a grounding in hung gar or CLF for example, do schools still do this and if so would you encourage your students to get a grounding in CLF, boxing or Thai before training in a more specialized art form?

2

Anytime a person engages you, they create a “bridge”, whether a physical one or one of “intent”.
But while in the past a “REAL” bridge ( physical connection) meant an exchange of blows or trapping, nowadays it will mean:
Clinching with or without hitting which begets"
Grappling, which begets:
Take downs, which begets
Ground work.

The options are to address said “begetting” or to ignore it and hop it goes away.

When following the practical view of addressing it, we have the option to adopt or adapt or both.

3

sanjuro ronin,

BINGO!!!

mickey

4

I would think that the “bridge” or center line concept is really not the first link in the chain.

The first link in the chain is to attack first (ideally) and do it on a straight line to their head or something else juicy on the center line of their body. Only if they block that somehow do you start working the “bridge”.

So against someone who “yields the center” and attacks from the side (like boxing hooks or what have you) then the real solution (if you want to stay inside a tighthand bridge/center line style of fighting) is to attack more aggressively up the center. It is worth mentioning this will be a dreamy (in the sense of one getting KOed) experience if you haven’t got the chin or ability to cover/absorb those hard hooks and what all to your cranium and/or chin.

Basically if you try to “to and fro kickbox” with a shorthand bridging style I’d think you are already missing the point.

The point of that shorthand bridging stuff is to attack first and KO them so fast they never get the chance to attack from the side. You attack so fast the only thing they can do to avoid the KO is to get their hands up on their center line and contend with you there. And then you have all the fancy centerline/trapping type stuff to deal with THAT eventuality.

If they start from far enough out that they pop off first I’d suggest jettisoning the “tighthand/center line stuff” and just driving in to clinch where you can use short-range trapping stuff like elbows.

My .02$.

5

even when I studied WCK, they trained to attack the centerline and then go to the blindside, flanking them. Centerline is where you direct your attacks, but to stand there on the inside and try to play from there, to me is insanity.
In SPM, we go in straight to attack the attack, but we really cut angles.
Why face all his guns?

6

The center line is about OURS not theirs.
Like TT said, flan them ( blind side) so that all your weapons can hit them but only a very limited amount of offense and defense can be used by the opponent.
Nothing new or unique to Southern systems, it is common in almost all forms of H2H fighting.

7

Is this more about gates than centreline?

Pak Mei uses centerline stuff, but also other vectors.

Its hard to add to what’s been said, I’m actually impressed at how insightful the answers are, but I don’t think it satisfies you?

Where I think its not making sense to you is that these concepts, and their practice is so ‘tick-tock-tick-tock’ that you can’t see how they apply under stress, as they are quite easily out-played in those little games we play with friends.

A bridge is anything from a trap/grab/lock, to a feint that just causes the opponent to lift a guard 2 inches. And, it is dynamic, as soon as you build you cross it and abandon it for the next one.

If you use TCAM short arm boxing, and you can’t move laterally, you are in a world of hurt.

I think of it a lot like foil vs sabre in sword fighting.

I think of that vid awhile back, I think it was Crocops brother, the Russian with all the tats, vs some giant hult type guy, spitting and snotting in his corner before the bout?

He came rushing the Russian, who sidestepped, tipped him once to get him off balance, and then delivered the groceries. Not saying it was centreline, per se, but a good example of how it works in reality.

And another technical point.

Some people load, they pull back an arm to punch. Lots of short armed fighters, don’t load, they spring forward only, but integrate additional power to make up for it, usually capturing body weight. Less power, quicker strike.

There are range games too, with a Short Arm fighter, the hands are held forward, maybe 75%? Other styles hold their arms back, maybe extended 30%. (Standard college wrestling defense, low, arms out. Its not that far a leap if you tighten up a bit… )

If you are good enough, you can use the speed to win. But, like I said, its not the style, its the man. Its the same western principle as setting up with a jab, and following up with a slab of concrete…so nothing mythical about it, just an alternative method to solve a problem.

The most difficult part of it all for me, is crossing the no-man’s-land of kicking and long arm attacks, into the range I want. You have to do it while the opponent has expended their loaded energy, thus, the ‘attack the attack’ concept.

8

i never heard of centerline and brdiging until i heard it from guangdong kung fu people. for longfist i learned about keep your hands up and protect your face and stomach.

for northern kung fu u either slap or roll the punch or duck. i still dont know what exactly is bridging.

i dont understand wing chun center line since your temples and ears and kidneys are on the side. when you cant defend a hook punch you have a problem.

9

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1058298]Anytime a person engages you, they create a “bridge”, whether a physical one or one of “intent”.
snip.[/QUOTE]

^^^^^^^^^

[QUOTE=bawang;1058418]snip i still dont know what exactly is bridging.[/QUOTE]

The more you know

10

why dont u just call it attacking

11

mantis loves fighting styles with centerline attacks, we use an angular stepping pattern to slip the the side as TT and others said, then attack right to defend the left and attack left to defned the right.

If blocked you can continue your angular step to move behind your opponent and continue attacking high then use the foot, chopping behind the knee to bring your opponent down.

bawang, bridign can be used as defense as well, perhaps thatsw why it is not just called attacking, you can bridge to neutralize as well.

12

[QUOTE=bawang;1058418]i never heard of centerline and brdiging until i heard it from guangdong kung fu people. for longfist i learned about keep your hands up and protect your face and stomach.[/QUOTE]
The general TCMA uses the term “front door and side doors” instead of the “center line”.

TCMA emphasizes on “fight to be inside and don’t fight to be outside”, and “fight to be on top and don’t fight to be on the bottom.” When you hold both hands together and make your arms to form a wedge, you will protect your head and chest from all straight punches. Your front door (center line) is closed. Since your opponent can only use hook punches to hit you (attack your side doors), you can use “(Gua) - comb hair” on both sides of your head and deflect both of your opponent’s punches and then move in with a head lock or overhook. IMO, protecting your center line is the same as “close your front door and invite your opponent to come through your side door”.

13

a good way to protect the centerline is to spend time punching and kicking your opponent so they dont have time to attack it lol

if no bridge is given in the sense most are thinking than just punch him :smiley:

14

[QUOTE=bawang;1058425]why dont u just call it attacking[/QUOTE]

or engaging.

It’s not my term, it is used as a concept that leads to learning about all the different types of bridging and how to deal with x or y or z.

attacking can be done impersonally from a distance with a projectile weapon…so no bridge required. :slight_smile:

15

[QUOTE=bawang;1058418]i dont understand wing chun center line since your temples and ears and kidneys are on the side. when you cant defend a hook punch you have a problem.[/QUOTE]

Yea, I think that is the issue, in a nutshell..

16

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1058439]The general TCMA uses the term “front door and side doors” instead of the “center line”.[/QUOTE]

That’s how we look at it, center, right and left, up and down.

Same triangular stepping as ED and TT mentioned for Mantis.

Good CLF is pretty mobile too.

A bridge, in long arm, might be a swinging arm against another arm, breaking a defense to open the door for the second swing.

Something else, short arm combinations (and others I’m sure) are alot about getting an expected reaction to build a combination on. If the bridge works, you follow it, if not, you re-group. The bridge may be benign, but it generates a reaction nevertheless and that’s the set-up. In itself, its not a panacea, it still comes down to the man.

And, its not universal, its one element of fighting skill, a strategy, not the only strategy.

17

[QUOTE=bawang;1058418]i dont understand wing chun center line since your temples and ears and kidneys are on the side. when you cant defend a hook punch you have a problem.[/QUOTE]

A hook punch is much easier to block than a straight punch. You don’t want to move in when your opponent uses straight punch at you. You want to move in when your opponent uses hook punch at you.

18

a lot of northern kung fu have guarding three levels. head stomach legs three levels its veyry simple. i think maybe people did wing chun and bring their bias into other styles

19

we have 8 cardinal points which we live by when fighting I have shared them before and will again for all, these are like the sonnets or poems of said style and keep in mind if you use these principles to master, fighting just became much easier

  1. Continuous movement with each technique giving birth to the next.
  2. Close the enemy using the long hand then destroy the enemy at close range with the
    short hand.
  3. Attack high to open the low area and attack low to open the high area.
  4. When attacking left defend the right, when attacking right defend the left.
  5. Attack and defend simultaneously since all actions are neither exclusively offensive
    nor defensive.
  6. Actions must be natural and reflexive, don’t think act.
  7. Stay relaxed and change the stepping pattern.
  8. In action there is stillness, in stillness there is action.
    e these to the point of instinct, fighting becomes much easier to master
20

[QUOTE=Frost;1058282]Ok I could have posted this in the southern or wing chun forums (well maybe not the wing chun forum lol) but I wanted to ask how have those of you that train a style that is predominantly concerned with attacking and defending the centre line (which usually goes hand in hand with some form of bridge/sticking work) adapted or changed your style to take into account that most modern confrontations in the west are with people who do not prescribed to the centre line theory (don’t seek or put out a bridge) and are more likely to be throwing hooks, upper cuts and overhands than attacks down the centre? And are more likely to clinch and hit/throw than trap and stick?

Before anyone in general (or someone in particular mentioning no names herre….) says real TCMA does not need to change and has it all I do know that southern styles have gone through this process in the past: That when the lama guys were winning their challenges matches in the south styles like the village hung gar changed a lot to take into account the new long hand strikes and the total lack of a bridge to work off (indeed hung gar and CLF actually adopted a lot of these strikes into their systems) so I was wondering what other styles were doing to take into account the modern environment?

And if you aren’t changing the style are you and have you changed how you train and who you train against? For example its one thing to say we train to defend against hooks and overhands thrown by class colleagues who have never boxed or done a long hand style but quite another to bring in a boxer, CLF or kick boxer to train against.

How do you ensure your guys are prepared for modern strikers? I know some hakka and southern arts were taught after one already had a grasp on a longer range style, learning bakmei or dragon after getting a grounding in hung gar or CLF for example, do schools still do this and if so would you encourage your students to get a grounding in CLF, boxing or Thai before training in a more specialized art form?[/QUOTE]

It is usually more difficult to fight against someone that has the same skills as you. WC is designed to fight against people trained or untrained, in other fighting styles. It works much better against people that do not know what WC is. In fact, on the street, you are not likely to ever meet up with someone that is trained in your specific fighting system. And that would include MMA styles. Unless of course you spend your time looking for them or hanging out in front of kwoons and dojo’s. In that case there is really no hope for you. When these discussions get heated up everyone talks like anyone you meet is going to be a strong ground fighter, but that is not usually the case. On the ground most people that are not trained in some form of wrestling or jiu Jitsu are all in the same boat.