[QUOTE=YungChun;1007114]You have to move the body to reach the opponent. You have to use the body to hammer the nail.. What does any of this have to do with a “fist distance” for the elbow???
[/QUOTE]
This is correct.
You don’t hit with the arm – you hit with the body (with body structure). Hammer (body) - nail (arm).
The “one fist distance” or “fixed elbow” guideline pertains to structure on the inside.
[QUOTE=CFT;1007036]Thank you very much Chu sifu. It’s just that the kuit seems to me to be on a continuum of “most preferred” to “last resort”. But from your explanation there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between the 3 “phases”, except from yau ying da ying to mou ying da ying.
[/QUOTE]
Chee,
Since I am in the clinic, I don’t have much time to write.
I want to say that all three sayings are related to time and positioning.
Yau ying da ying is on the same centerline, in the one beat.
mo ying da ying is when the opponent tries to change centerline and runs away, dodges, does lateral movement, you are doing Jui Ying (Chasing)
mo ying por jung is when you have adjusted your centerline because of his trying to escape and you are controlling the opponent - he has no shape or form, nor shadow, because the centerline and center of gravity are broken and you are pounding him at will because you use structure to set up multiple continuous chained strikes.
I hope this makes it clearer.
[QUOTE=LSWCTN1;1007135]i believe this to be correct, but only at the point of impact. just after impact your arm then surely extends too?[/QUOTE]
Jik Chung is the body rushing in at the opponent, not just the hand. You want to bowl your opponent over.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1007115]Ok. Maybe a ‘classical’ martial saying but I wouldn’t go as far as to say Wing Chun specific. Maybe Hung Kuen IMO as they refer a lot to shadows/shadowless form fme.
As for interpretation I think Robert has done a good job there except for the 3rd ‘phase’, which I believe to mean something else.
From what I understand, if an opponent is said to have mo ying (no shadow) it is because they’re eratic and unpredictable and very, very fast. When confronted with such an agressor just plough through his centre, break it, as the body will always cast a shadow and be destructable (unlike the arms/legs)
Hence: Mo Ying Por Jung ;)[/QUOTE]
Very interesting interpretation.
I must say this: if your opponent is controlled by your structure, he is not fast at all, that is why you Por Jung him.
Thanks Chu sifu, that was very helpful. Sometimes I think the kuen kuit are more hindrance than help but it does get one thinking.
[QUOTE=CFT;1007175]Thanks Chu sifu, that was very helpful. Sometimes I think the kuen kuit are more hindrance than help but it does get one thinking.[/QUOTE]
That YOU are thinking about these things is very much to your credit.
Chee,
Kuen Kuit make you think…apply logic, reasoning. Its a clue. Also not for outsiders.
Interesting discussion,
In HFY we employ the Kuen Kuit of Mo Ying Da Yeng, as a point of reference and understanding of a certain area/range by way of bridging tools (Kiu Sau) and body mechanics.
If you face straight ahead. The shadow occurs where your eyes go blurry on the sides… as this where you loose the ability to track properly with both of your eyes.
From a bridging perspective, we refer to this shadow area as Fau Kiu, or Wandering Bridge. As the space has to be swept to initiate contact/control, due to the lack of there being a clear direct target.
The strategy here that we employ is to go “from nowhere to somewhere”. Meaning how do you apply strong bridging on the shadow. How do you cover this space, how do you then create better facing conditions.
The beauty of strong structure and proper body mechanics, is that a bridge can be a block or a strike at the same time… depending on range, energy and positioning.
Mo Ying Da Yeng teaches how to bridge the shadow.
[QUOTE=duende;1007284]Interesting discussion,
In HFY we employ the Kuen Kuit of Mo Ying Da Yeng, as a point of reference and understanding of a certain area/range by way of bridging tools (Kiu Sau) and body mechanics.
If you face straight ahead. The shadow occurs where your eyes go blurry on the sides… as this where you loose the ability to track properly with both of your eyes.
From a bridging perspective, we refer to this shadow area as Fau Kiu, or Wandering Bridge. As the space has to be swept to initiate contact/control, due to the lack of there being a clear direct target.
The strategy here that we employ is to go “from nowhere to somewhere”. Meaning how do you apply strong bridging on the shadow. How do you cover this space, how do you then create better facing conditions.
The beauty of strong structure and proper body mechanics, is that a bridge can be a block or a strike at the same time… depending on range, energy and positioning.
Mo Ying Da Yeng teaches how to bridge the shadow.[/QUOTE]
No. This kuit does not pertain to establishing a bridge. Sweeping to make contact is a really, really bad tactic (akin to reaching for punches) and leaves you very exposed and committed. Moreover, you can’t possibly break structure on contact (a main objective) by sweeping. That’s just a really poor idea.
You may want to consider the following kuit: Choang chee cheong goang seen chee sun - Fast charging and thrusting are well suited for closing the gap.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1007295]No. This kuit does not pertain to establishing a bridge. Sweeping to make contact is a really, really bad tactic and leaves you very exposed and committed. Moreover, you can’t possibly break structure on contact (a main objective) by sweeping. That’s just a really poor idea.
You may want to consider the following kuit: Choang chee cheong goang seen chee sun - Fast charging and thrusting are well suited for closing the gap.[/QUOTE]
Covering space is an effective means of “sweeping” as long as it as strong structure and control/direction of outgoing energy.
What you are describing is a basic no no… And does not apply to what I’m talking about.
[QUOTE=duende;1007304]Covering space is an effective means of “sweeping” as long as it as strong structure and control/direction of outgoing energy.
What you are describing is a basic no no… And does not apply to what I’m talking about.[/QUOTE]
No. To effectively establish a WCK bridge, we need to be able to project our structure into our opponent upon contact (this is what destroys his structure). “Sweeping” to join won’t permit that. Sweeping is a very bad idea.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1007308]No. To effectively establish a WCK bridge, we need to be able to project our structure into our opponent upon contact (this is what destroys his structure). “Sweeping” to join won’t permit that. Sweeping is a very bad idea.[/QUOTE]
Covering space is projecting one’s structure.
Read my post again…
The beauty of strong structure and proper body mechanics, is that a bridge can be a block or a strike at the same time… depending on range, energy and positioning.
[QUOTE=duende;1007315]Covering space is projecting one’s structure.
Read my post again…
The beauty of strong structure and proper body mechanics, is that a bridge can be a block or a strike at the same time… depending on range, energy and positioning.[/QUOTE]
“Covering space” is nonsense. Whenever you hand/arm leaves your body (moves outward), you are exposed. Sweeping only exposes you. And, you don’t need to sweep or “cover space”, nor is it WCK’s method of joining. WCK’s method is to join by striking (striking is projecting one’s structure).
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1007318]“Covering space” is nonsense. Whenever you hand/arm leaves your body (moves outward), you are exposed. Sweeping only exposes you. And, you don’t need to sweep or “cover space”, nor is it WCK’s method of joining. WCK’s method is to join by striking (striking is projecting one’s structure).[/QUOTE]
“sweeping”, in the manner you are talking about, is stretching out your limbs, becoming open/exposed, essentially chasing hands. This is basic knowledge…
HOWEVER… That is NOT what I’m talking about. Why do you always have to get so fixated.
Don’t forget, we are discussing Mo Ying, Da Yeng. Not simply bridging upon contact.
And btw, we have multiple ways of bridging the shadow. Some include partial contact, some are pre contact, and some are fully-committed contact.
Covering space is OCCUPYING/DOMMINATING space with strong structure. Mo Ying Da Yeng teaches us how to do this effectively without leaving ourselves exposed, without over-committing our energy, and without chasing hands.
Again… with proper body mechanics… a strike is a bridge is a block… depending on the range and positioning.
[QUOTE=duende;1007331]“sweeping”, in the manner you are talking about, is stretching out your limbs, becoming open/exposed, essentially chasing hands. This is basic knowledge…
HOWEVER… That is NOT what I’m talking about. Why do you always have to get so fixated.
Don’t forget, we are discussing Mo Ying, Da Yeng. Not simply bridging upon contact.
And btw, we have multiple ways of bridging the shadow. Some include partial contact, some are pre contact, and some are fully-committed contact.
[/QUOTE]
I’m sorry, but you are talking nonsense (“bridging the shadow”, “bridging upon contact”).
The kuit in question simply doesn’t pertain to what you think it does. The “shadow” isn’t “where your eyes go blurry on the sides… as this where you loose [sic] the ability to track properly with both of your eyes.” (as you posted). That’s crazy.
Covering space is OCCUPYING/DOMMINATING space with strong structure.
More nonsense. You don’t dominate “space”. And as for “occupying space with strong structure”, this is silly.
Mo Ying Da Yeng teaches us how to do this effectively without leaving ourselves exposed, without over-committing our energy, and without chasing hands.
Again… with proper body mechanics… a strike is a bridge is a block… depending on the range and positioning.
The kuit – any kuit – doesn’t teach you how to do anything effectively. The kuit only points you in the right direction for your practice. It is only through your practice that you learn how to do anything effectively.
This particular kuit doesn’t pertain to getting an attachment. If someone told you that, they misled you.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1007355]I’m sorry, but you are talking nonsense (“bridging the shadow”, “bridging upon contact”).
The kuit in question simply doesn’t pertain to what you think it does. The “shadow” isn’t “where your eyes go blurry on the sides… as this where you loose [sic] the ability to track properly with both of your eyes.” (as you posted). That’s crazy.
[/QUOTE]
Actually the Kuen Kuit pertains EXACTLY to what I’m talking about. And in the spirit of conversation and WC comradery you just received some good info to absorb. Info that we’ve discussed online at HFY108 for years now. Unfortunately, you are just waaaay too defensive to realize it.
But let’s look at Robert’s explanation…
If the shadow is a “Glimmer” like Robert says… 2) mo ying da ying - If no form, hit the shadow. This refers to the moving target. The action is too fast for your eyes to see, so strike at what you glimmer. Its like shooting a moving target - you shoot at where the target will be.
Then by this logic, your interpretation of Mo Ying Da Yeng means that you should shoot at a fist! Because by YOUR definition, it’s an action that’s too fast for eyes to see!! 
Our shadow reference is actually a true visual shadow… due to lack of focusing capabilities on the side when looking straight forward. YOUR shadow definition could be a fake, it could be fast jab, it could be many moving fast objects. Trying to hit any “glimmer” is pretty vague, by anyone’s account. You’ll not only be chasing hands… you’ll be chasing flies! haha 
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1007355]
More nonsense. You don’t dominate “space”. And as for “occupying space with strong structure”, this is silly.
[/QUOTE]
Yes you do and you know it! This is one aspect of control. You would just rather argue than admit it. Funny how your recent posts about control and bridging echo concepts and strategies that we’ve been writing here online for years! But of course now it’s the “original Wing Chun Faat”!
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1007355]
The kuit – any kuit – doesn’t teach you how to do anything effectively. The kuit only points you in the right direction for your practice. It is only through your practice that you learn how to do anything effectively.
This particular kuit doesn’t pertain to getting an attachment. If someone told you that, they misled you.[/QUOTE]
No $hit! It’s just a vague phrase, but in that phrase holds much to one’s understanding if they understand certain meanings and references in WC.
As far as being mislead. Have you read your posts lately?
[QUOTE=duende;1007366] And in the spirit of conversation and WC comradery you just received some good info to absorb. [/QUOTE] I believe that this is an excellent statement that more of us (including myself) should consider as a general rule.
The problem with being a critical thinker is that there is a tendency to totally focused on being critical and completely dismissing an opposing point of view out of hand.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1007355]This particular kuit doesn’t pertain to getting an attachment. If someone told you that, they misled you.[/QUOTE]
I wasn’t aware that you had actually read the HFY kuit. Have you? If not, how exactly is it that you are able to more precisely understand its interpretation over someone who has trained it for many years?
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1007386]…how exactly is it that you are able to more precisely understand its interpretation over someone who has trained it for many years?[/QUOTE]
Because he’s Terrence Niehoff.
by sweeping he may mean ‘cleave to centre’ or one tan sau sweeps and so does the basic punch