Anyone have extensive training in Filipino and Indonesian unarmed arts? I heard they are pretty practical. If anyone has trained in these and has any information to an outsider it would be appreciated. Kuntaw? Unarmed filipino art sounds interesting. Kali has the best knifefighting I have seen yet .
Always seeking to learn,
Kong Jianshen
Humble disciple of the ancient Boxing Arts
KJ,
It depends on the style you are referring to, just like Kung Fu has hundreds of styles, so does Kali, Silat, etc.-ED
“The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground…take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up…keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere…be ready and able to go everywhere.”-a mix martial artist
I believe the Filipino and Indonesian arts are the way to go for stick and knife training. I know people will disagree with me on this one (and at one time I would have disagreed also), but I believe their empty-hand applications don’t stack up too well against some other empty-handed arts.
GinSueDog- Always good to hear you post. I am reffering to Sikaran, Kuntaw, Filipino Dirty Boxing, Dumog, anything filipino and unarmed I can’t recall any silat style names because they might be a little exotic for my western mind 
Knifefighter- “I believe their empty-hand applications don’t stack up too well against some other empty-handed arts.”
Great point. I will give that some thought. Maybe only cause thier knifefighting rocks, who is to say they’re empty hands do? Maybe i’ll live those arts for weapon training.
Although, I have heard some stuff about certain Silat grappling technqiues. They use more gouging, clawing, and nasty techniques which can be equalizers when facing against a better grappler.
I also heard the filipino styles emphasize destructions, and use of elbows which I like. Anyone training for street effiency, cannot overlook elbows. But, Thai Boxing also has elbows down pretty good.
Always seeking to learn,
Kong Jianshen
Humble disciple of the ancient Boxing Arts
KJ,
As Guru Dan Inosanto put it at a seminar I went to last year, almost everyone in the country side in the Philippines is armed with at least a machete. So I would figure there knife/stick work would have to be better then there empty hand. Just remember to take it with a little salt, not every Kali or Silat instructor trains it like the Dog Brothers do. As for the grappling in Kali or Silat, dirty tricks are nice but against a good grappler you may not get the chance to even use them, I know that the Kail that is incorporated in PFS was pretty helpful is making me more aware of my positioning and what dirty tricks could be used on me from those positions, if anything it helped my grappling street wise, but I wouldn’t rely on dirty tricks.-ED
“The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground…take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up…keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere…be ready and able to go everywhere.”-a mix martial artist
[This message was edited by GinSueDog on 12-21-00 at 04:44 PM.]
Trying to catch to topic
I am reffering to Sikaran, Kuntaw, Filipino Dirty Boxing, Dumog, anything filipino and unarmed I can’t recall any silat style names because they might be a little exotic for my western mind
Kyoshu
Dog brothers! Arrrr!
I don’t think anyone trains it like the dog brothers
Man those guys are really good. Talk about training with realism in mind. I belive thier training makes someone who can actually fight.
Always seeking to learn,
Kong Jianshen
Humble disciple of the ancient Boxing Arts
Filipino Arts
Unlike most martial arts, many Filipino martial arts styles start the beginner learning weapons first, in many cases, the single and double sticks. Don’t get the wrong impression because since the empty hand is secondary, the empty-hand techniques are more vicious and less merciful than say tai chi or aikido.
Filipino martial arts was created by suppressed Filipinos during the occupation of the Philippines by the Spaniards centuries ago so Filipino martial arts evolved differently than Chinese, Japanese, and Korean where those arts influenced each other. Therefore, the training methods and philosophies of combat may seem alien to students of the other styles.
Knife, count me in the group that likes Indo empty hand work. Of course, it varies by style.
I am not familier with the styles you are talking about, though I have various levels of exposure to the William Reeders, “Uncle” Willem DeThaures, and Chiku Madgid lines of Silat (Serak, Tjimande, Harimau, Madi, Seti-Hati, Baji, Tjikulung, some Pukilans, etc.) and would be happy to discuss any of those.
Jerry,
If you dont mind me asking, what was your exposure to Reeders line Kun Tao.
As for those of you who believe that many FMArtist are weak in teh empty hand side, please continue to think that way. It’s called underestimation, you make a blanket statement about such a varied collection of Martial Arts (Fhilippino), where much has yet to be seen by most Americans. I know there are those here who believe its junk if I say what I can do with my stick or knife, I can do with my hand. But believe me when I say that the traditional weapons trainings of the PI, produce a quite different style of empty hand fighting. While some movements may be similiar to what we do with our weapons, the hands change teh range and thus how you fight must also be changed. My weapon is just an extension of my hand.
Tao - reasonably limited. My instructor has spent some quality time with Guy Savelli, and I have been through a few of his seminars. I also spent some time with Sifu Lenny (never did ask him his last name) who taught Reeder’s liniage Kuntao in Ft.Meyers,FL until his death.
BTW, the clip is kinda suckie but here is a 10sec clip of our phase 1 empty-hand work. Clip
[This message was edited by Jerry Love on 12-24-00 at 05:55 PM.]
It’s nice in theory, but…
I used to believe that the “weapons are just an extension of the hands”. I don’t any more. My opinion is that, while there is a bit of transfer from one area to another, you fight differently with a knife, stick, rapier, staff, spear, broadsword, katana, empty hands, etc. I believe that you need specific training for a specific type of weapon (or lack thereof) and that empty hands fighting is much different than with a weapon. While I am a big believer in the Filipino arts for sticks and knives, I think there are other arts much better for empty-handed fighting.
I agree. Unless you can lacerate with your hands, they are not knives. And knives are not swords. I think you can create some crossover (our emptyhand and knife fighting are very similar to one another. Swordfighting would not be) but it is wrong to believe that there isn’t a difference between armmed and unarmed.
I would point out that IMA and FMA are not the same and with FMA and IMA are many arts that are also not the same. I think that the empty-hand work in silat is excellent, espically when looking at empty against a knife.
Knife,
Never said there was no difference. What I was trying to relay is that through my FMA training that my weapon work is as comftorable and as fluid as my empty hands. One instinctively knows where your hand is at all times, I do not have to think about reaching for the glass, I only reach for it. It is this that is the goal of our weapons training. As for how we teach empty hand yes it varies from how we teach weapons, since the novice usually has not made the leap to extension. What you seem to be relaying is begining movement, and I am not sure if you have had any advanced training. I dont mean any insult or offense but I hear what I hear. I see very little difference in movements of advanced CMA or IMA from the more advanced movements of Mano Mano. The traditional movements that I speak of seem to be missing from the more modernised ecletic groups of FMA out there. Where several have used Lee’s philosophy and discarded what they thaught as useless, yet those “useless” things would have eventually led to some understanding of the more advanced movement, but such is the curse of us Americans I guess, we want our moneys worth, we want it all up front and have little time for traditional training, and thus many of us never see what the art can bring.
Jerry,
I hope I dont ofend you as well, but I dont call what Sevelli is teaching Reeders line Kun Tao. Let me say that I have never met the man, and only can forge my beliefs from what I have seen of his video and printed material. He openly states that his kun tao and his “mental” techniques were learned after his departure from GM Reeders, and even went on to state that “it was this ability that Master Reeders acknowledge and feared in a challenge match.” Truth being that if there had ever been such a match Sevelli would not be here to make such statements. If you have connections in Florida and seek true Reeders line Kun Tao, it would do you well to seek out Master Carl Spitoli, I think he’s in Florida. I have had the privilege of seeing several masters who trained under GM Reeders, including Spitoli, Joe Salamoni, and GM Arthur Sikes (Master Reeders right hand student), and their movement makes Sevelli look like a beginer.
As I said I mean no disrespect to either you or Knifefighter, I have always enjoyed your post and value both of your opinions. This is just my thoughts, weigh it how you want.
TaoMonkey:
Maybe you are right and my training in FMA was not advanced enough to see the effective empty-handed applications. Can you give some specific examples of how the advanced weapons movements of which you speak are also applied unarmed?
6
Indonesian art
[message deleted]
Indonesian art
There are many types of Indonesian silat, or Pencak silat, or Maenpo, many names to these exotic MA.
Silat is a martial art mainly practiced in West Indonesia, although there are some Mid- Indonesian style.
For example, in Jakarta there’s Betawi people which originally resides in Jakarta, and the type of silat they practice are quite many. Just name it: Jingkrik, originally comes from Rawabelong, West Jakarta, famous in Jakarta by its exponent, si Pitung, who lived during Dutch colonial in Indonesia, mainly practiced in Kemanggisan, Rawabelong, and Kebun jeruk, West Jakarta. Beksi, mainly practiced in Slipi, West Jakarta. Gerak raksa, of unknown origin, practiced only by few practitioners. Al Hikmah, Islam-influenced silat, mainly practiced in West Jakarta. Kelabang nyebrang (crossing centipede), Naga ngerem (Crouching dragon), Kelabang muter (circling centipede), three types of silat which were said to be derived of Shandong (China) Martial art, mainly practiced in Tanah abang, Central Jakarta. And there are still many more unrevealed system of silat in Indonesia. An interesting thing, though, that the term ‘Kuntao’ is used to describe a mixed system of Silat and Kungfu, and this system is well-known for its finger strike (striking with fingers). And there’s a very clear connection between Indonesian silat with other places’ silat, even to Phillipines Silat, and seeing the term ‘Silat’, it obviously shows Indonesian influence.
The types of silat Jerry Love mentioned, for example, Cimande (or Tjimande, older spelling), is still not yet revealed all to outsiders. It is practiced in Cimande, West Java, but the true holders of the skill are of the Cimande dalem or Tarik olot area. Personally I don’t believe that any Westerner can learn this style as it is sometimes impossible for even Indonesian people to obtain this skill in the real place. As far as I know, one of Cimande practice is to do “Sugarcane beating”, that is beating fresh sugarcane to the shin, arm, and different parts of the body until the sugarcane breaks. Setia hati is a system mainly practiced in Central Java, Madiun if I am not mistaken, and it has many branches in Indonesia. Cikalong (not Tjikulung) is also a system coming from West Java. There are many systems with the name “Silat Harimau”. One of the rare systems of Silat Harimau is in North Sumatera, and I believe it has not been taught to Westerners as it comes out to the surface not a long time ago. And who is Willem de Thouars? Can anybody tell me what type of silat did he learn, and who was his teacher?
Wish in peace
Taomonkey, no offence taken. If neither Savelli nor Lenny represent Reeders, than I do not have exposure to Reeders system. At this point, I am not after reeders system in particular. And while I am always happy to get new material, I am happy with my study under Richard Clear here in Tampa. The liniage is a little mixed, but I like the material quite a bit.
WfP - Try his page here
Taomonkey - Wasn’t it Williem Reeders who gave himeself the title “Liu Seong-Dai Sensei” (According to Arthur Sikes (Sensei is Japaneese)) which translates (again according to Sikes) into “Master of all Masters of all Styles”.
Where can I find information on him, because what I read doesn’t make me want to seek out a teacher in his liniage very much.
Hmm
It has been my observation (and I hold teaching certificates in CMA and FMA, and am currently studying IMA, and no, I don’t know everything, this is just my experience) that FMA because of thier expertise in blade work (in my opinion superior to CMA) thier empty hand skills are not as effective as the CMA.
Just my personal opinion. Based on lots o’ fighting. The funny thing is, I was pretty much a guy to beat in my FMA school empty handed, but wth blades it was one of the girls who always cut me up. So wether you think one or the other is superior is really moot once the blades come out.