[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;1251020]Who care about ‘modern shaolin’. [/QUOTE]
you are modern shaolin
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1251024] It says nothing about fist being a new thing in the world, just that fist practice is not popular as staff and that Shaolin fist has not reached the zenith of Shaolin Staff. This is probably because fist has more variables than staff and so is more complex[/QUOTE]
it clearly says boxing is a new thing in shaolin. even your own awkward translation.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1251024] This is a Kung Fu forum. It is written word. Very little actual physical training can go on here, so I suggest this is exactly the kind of thing we can talk about. By talking to other people who are interested I am certain we can unlock more of the manuals teachings.[/QUOTE]
you will never allow anything in the ancient manuals that are contradictory to what you have paid for at dengfeng to change your views about kung fu.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1251024]For example, let me help you; Actually in the majority he uses Yin grip not to mean the overhand grip, but to mean still the standard underhand grip, except that the palm is facing down and so there is downwards and inside pressure on the staff. [/QUOTE]
that’s called an overhand grip
[QUOTE=bawang;1251026]
that’s called an overhand grip[/QUOTE]
If we are going to discuss this manual, this is the first thing to be very very clear on.
The rear hand is always the same. The front hand can grip the staff in two ways. Thumb towards you or thumb away. Thumb towards you is overhand grip. This is standard terminology. Thumb away is underhand. However while in underhand (thumb away) you can rotate the staff in your hand so the palm faces either the sky or the earth. This rotation WITHOUT changing grip is the difference between yin and yang grip as mentioned in the manual, and the essential feature of many of the techniques.
If we are all agreed to use this terminology we can start to discuss the techniques clearly.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1251027]If we are going to discuss this manual, this is the first thing to be very very clear on.
The rear hand is always the same. The front hand can grip the staff in two ways. Thumb towards you or thumb away. Thumb towards you is overhand grip. [/QUOTE]
palm under weapon is underhand. palm over weapon is overhand.
once again you obsess with appearance and minor details. it always comes back to form.
[QUOTE=bawang;1251028]palm under weapon is underhand. palm over weapon is overhand.
once again you obsess with appearance and minor details. it always comes back to form.[/QUOTE]
Fine, but that terminology is unclear. It doesn’t separate the thumb towards grip and thumb away. Changing the grip between thumb towards and thumb away is a huge feature of the staff. The spear never really does this, the fact the staff can shorten in this way is one of its essential features.
For the correct structure of staff technique the precise way in which the front hand grips the staff IS the most essential feature, so we must be clear. It may be a physically small change but it is far from a minor feature.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1251030]Fine, but that terminology is unclear. It doesn’t separate the thumb towards grip and thumb away. Changing the grip between thumb towards and thumb away is a huge feature of the staff. The spear never really does this, the fact the staff can shorten in this way is one of its essential features.
For the correct structure of staff technique the precise way in which the front hand grips the staff IS the most essential feature, so we must be clear. It may be a physically small change but it is far from a minor feature.[/QUOTE]
the “correct structure” is important for getting points in form competitions, not fighting.
which is why you wont touch the actual postures in the manual with a ten foot pole, but obsess over trivial matters like grip.
[QUOTE=bawang;1251031]the “correct structure” is important for getting points in form competitions, not fighting.
which is why you wont touch the actual postures in the manual with a ten foot pole, but obsess over trivial matters like grip.[/QUOTE]
You have shown your inexperience BaWang.
In weapons sparring structure is EVERYTHING.
Form is too fast to notice these small features. However in sparring with a spear this small wrist rotation and structure is the difference between parrying and being hit. The strength of the structure is what stops you getting hit.
Correct minute structure makes ALL the difference with long weapons and bladed weapons alike.
Trivial matters like grip??? In Spear technique grip and wrist rotation is perhaps the most important feature.
lol “flick of the wrist”
lol “strength of structure”
do u even manual
[QUOTE=bawang;1251011]yin hand just means overhand grip.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I know what that means.
Actually, I base the relationship on analysis of the description of technques of yin shou gun in the book.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1251012] Song shan actually has quite a lot of different versions of YinShouGun, also there are 6 roads to it in some clans. The version I practice is quite non standard, but I have seen many others. I want to see if I can match it to any. [/QUOTE]
Great, I would love to see what you find.
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;1251021]There are various other books older than this one published in 1600s that shows and writes about many fist practice at Shaolin. That Shaolin Temple history book that came out a few years ago by Professor Maheir writes all about them.[/QUOTE]
I have a large collection of books from this era. Could you refresh my memory on which Ming era books talk about Shaolin fist methods?
Er Lang Carries the Mountain
There should be story where Er Lang carried a mountain existing in the Ming.
There are mentions of Er Lang in books of that time such as Journey to the West, but I have not been able to find mention of Er Lang shouldering or carrying a mountain.
Any clues?
This technique, called Er Lang shoulders the mountain is from the Wu Bei Zhi version of Cheng Zengyou’s work
No, I have often wondered that, I assumed it was a part of old mythology. The technique ErLangDanShan appears in all the weapons and fists and is usually compared to ‘Dan Bian’ and is almost always a both arms straight out in line posture.
Interestingly, the modern version of this technique (in SongShan) the staff is almost immediately caught by the free hand and the staff is carried across the shoulders by both hands and performs a rotation before being unleashed. Appears in many forms.
[QUOTE=Tainan Mantis;1251044]There should be story where Er Lang carried a mountain existing in the Ming.
There are mentions of Er Lang in books of that time such as Journey to the West, but I have not been able to find mention of Er Lang shouldering or carrying a mountain.
Any clues?
This technique, called Er Lang shoulders the mountain is from the Wu Bei Zhi version of Cheng Zengyou’s work[/QUOTE]
there were 10 suns in the sky. three eyed god carries mountains on his back and throws them at nine suns, crushing them under the ground.
[QUOTE=bawang;1251053]there were 10 suns in the sky. three eyed god carries mountains on his back and throws them at nine suns, crushing them under the ground.[/QUOTE]
So no arrows in that particular story then. This throwing mountains story seems very interesting. I thought Houyi was responsible. But then, there are numerous creation myths. So many cultures and religions. 
Sorry it took me so long to catch up on this one. Been busy.
Nice thread topic for here, RenDaHai. Good on you!
[QUOTE=pazman;1250871]I guess the question is…just because they have the same names, are they really the same forms?[/QUOTE]
The forms described in the manual don’t really map on to the modern forms very well. I’m speaking mostly about yinshougun, not so much about the others as I haven’t really worked on those. Anyway, I have always pondered why this is - not in a direct lineage way as that’s a game of Chinese whispers spanning decades - but in a reconstructive way. If Shaolin was all reconstructed, why didn’t they reconstruct it in a way that mimicked this manual? I mean honestly, how hard would that be? Why didn’t someone just interpret the manual, reconstruct the form from that, and then come out saying that they have the true original form? 
[QUOTE=GeneChing;1251113]Nice thread topic for here, RenDaHai. Good on you!
The forms described in the manual don’t really map on to the modern forms very well. I’m speaking mostly about yinshougun, not so much about the others as I haven’t really worked on those. Anyway, I have always pondered why this is - not in a direct lineage way as that’s a game of Chinese whispers spanning decades - but in a reconstructive way. If Shaolin was all reconstructed, why didn’t they reconstruct it in a way that mimicked this manual? I mean honestly, how hard would that be? Why didn’t someone just interpret the manual, reconstruct the form from that, and then come out saying that they have the true original form? :p[/QUOTE]
because it would have no backflips.
Modern yinshougun has no backflips
However, you could add a backflip into any form. Compositionally, a backflip could fit anywhere. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=bawang;1251053]there were 10 suns in the sky. three eyed god carries mountains on his back and throws them at nine suns, crushing them under the ground.[/QUOTE]
I wasn’t sure if you are joking on this one.
I am looking for the source of the story of Er Lang carrying mountains on his shouldering pole.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1251027]
The rear hand is always the same. The front hand can grip the staff in two ways. Thumb towards you or thumb away. Thumb towards you is overhand grip. This is standard terminology. Thumb away is underhand. However while in underhand (thumb away) you can rotate the staff in your hand so the palm faces either the sky or the earth. This rotation WITHOUT changing grip is the difference between yin and yang grip as mentioned in the manual, and the essential feature of many of the techniques.
If we are all agreed to use this terminology we can start to discuss the techniques clearly.[/QUOTE]
This kind of stuff is really helpful, thanks. Can you elaborate (if it’s possible in this word-based format) on how this rotation changes your structure and helps parry a thrust to the heart? I do understand if you want to mainly keep to discussing the manual.