“wow ancient manual mentions my style one time. my style is super special”
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1250937]On the spear,
Clearly at the time in Shaolin they practiced the spear a lot, since many of the staff techniques are designed specifically to defeat the spear.
Cheng mentions that during battle formation many of the changes cannot be used. As such in formation fighting I suspect there is very little difference between the major spear styles. Only a few of the major techniques will be useful.
Cheng also wrote a book on Yang family Spear. He mentions techniques of BaQiangMu, and LiuHeFa.[/QUOTE]
shaolin staff is for battlefield formation fighting only.
[QUOTE=pazman;1250871] I guess the question is…just because they have the same names, are they really the same forms? [/QUOTE]
they are not the same forms. the manual describes the forms.
[QUOTE=pazman;1250871]I’ve always heard Yangjia qiang and Liuhe qiang are interchangable terms, but when you look at huge assortment of forms with those names it seems not to be true. On the other hand, filter out some of the flashy opera moves and they boil down to the same handful of techniques and strategies.[/QUOTE]
six harmony are six solo drills of yang family spear.
[QUOTE=pazman;1250871]More importantly…how were these arts trained back then? [/QUOTE]
attacking poles, sparring with soft sticks, sparring with cotton pointed spears
BaWang,
Is this the section of the book you were referring to in our previous argument? About fist practice only beginning around this time?
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1250974]BaWang,
Is this the section of the book you were referring to in our previous argument? About fist practice only beginning around this time?[/QUOTE]
“boxing is still not popular in our region, so people who box a lot want to advance it to be equal to the staff”
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1250974]BaWang,
Is this the section of the book you were referring to in our previous argument? About fist practice only beginning around this time?[/QUOTE]
its funny that you guys try to beef up your form and lineage cred by being mentioned in this book.
if you read the book closely you will realize the book actually brings shaolin kung fu great shame. it collected every single shaolin staff technique. and modern shaolin staff contains almost none.
Six Harmony for two
[QUOTE=bawang;1250951]
six harmony are six solo drills of yang family spear.
[/QUOTE]
Before WW2 at Qing Dao Guo Shu Guan Six Harmony Staff was taught.
It is a collection of two person forms strung together into a long sequence.
Most students learned only the solo sequence. But, Master Wu Shaolin (not the shaolin temple) brought the two person sequence to Taiwan and taught a few people. Shi Zhengzhong and Yang Fengshi, my shifu and uncle are the only two I know of.
Here is the two person sequence performed by me and a student
The techniques combine sword and spear with staff though it is all trained with staff.
Then, the sequences are broken down into short parts for partner practice.
[QUOTE=bawang;1250998]its funny that you guys try to beef up your form and lineage cred by being mentioned in this book.
if you read the book closely you will realize the book actually brings shaolin kung fu great shame. it collected every single shaolin staff technique. and modern shaolin staff contains almost none.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think so. It is not extremely clearly written and he doesn’t actually introduce all the techniques he mentions, but a fair amount of what I see is familier. It is going to take me a while to match these techniques up with the modern versions and names since, as I say, the manual is not extremely clear. But I think a lot of it will be represented, certainly some techniques are immediately familiar.
Anyway, I want this thread to be more about the actual techniques, forms and history presented in the book than an argument between us. That said I would like to know if this is the passage you were thinking of in our earlier argument because if not I have missed something.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1250937]
Cheng mentions that during battle formation many of the changes cannot be used. [/QUOTE]
Yes, general Qi Jiguang of that same era says the same:
[INDENT]An awe-inspiring well arranged display of military force with hundreds or thousands of soldiers in a platoon moving forward makes it impossible for the brave to rush to the front or the cowardly to hide in the rear. As the enemy troops arrange their spears or swords to attack us and we return the attack all the soldiers move together as a single unit. The platoon shape is so dense and tightly packed that even a minor movement of the hand is difficult. How can it be allowed to have everybody jump and move left and right?
At this point it would only take one person to turn back and everyone would feel doubt. It would only take one person to turn around and retreat one small step and everyone would lose their confidence.[/INDENT]
But small groups are not constrained by the rules of large battle formations.
[QUOTE=Tainan Mantis;1251003]
Here is the two person sequence performed by me and a student
Six Harmony Staff Vs Staff
[/QUOTE]
Damn, wish I could access that.
In the book on the spear written by the same author (ChengZongYou) he lists LiuHeFa as six two man drills, each which contains a different pair of concepts with the spear.
Two Person Shaolin 18 Movement Stick
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1250927]The actual taolu ‘YinSHouGunYiLu’ is represented in the text. I intend to compare this with the current versions around song shan.[/QUOTE]
I have done that and have found no relationship.
Here is a portion of Yin Shou Gun
My version is called 18 moves of Shaolin. The method recorded by Cheng Zengyou is longer.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1251007]Damn, wish I could access that.[/QUOTE]
There is a program to access youtube from China.
Do you need help?
[QUOTE=Tainan Mantis;1251009]There is a program to access youtube from China.
Do you need help?[/QUOTE]
Thanks, but I use a Mac and the program doesn’t work and VPN is too slow here in Dengfeng to be worth it.
[QUOTE=Tainan Mantis;1251008]I have done that and have found no relationship.
Here is a portion of Yin Shou Gun
My version is called 18 moves of Shaolin. The method recorded by Cheng Zengyou is longer.
Yin Shou Gun[/QUOTE]
yin hand just means overhand grip.
[QUOTE=Tainan Mantis;1251008]I have done that and have found no relationship.
Here is a portion of Yin Shou Gun
My version is called 18 moves of Shaolin. The method recorded by Cheng Zengyou is longer.
Yin Shou Gun[/QUOTE]
I see, its quite difficult to compare huh? Song shan actually has quite a lot of different versions of YinShouGun, also there are 6 roads to it in some clans. The version I practice is quite non standard, but I have seen many others. I want to see if I can match it to any.
I think the staff used these days is shorter and used less spear like than of that time, and now QiMeiGun is the most prevalent.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1251004]I don’t think so. It is not extremely clearly written and he doesn’t actually introduce all the techniques he mentions, but a fair amount of what I see is familier. It is going to take me a while to match these techniques up with the modern versions and names since, as I say, the manual is not extremely clear. But I think a lot of it will be represented, certainly some techniques are immediately familiar.
[/QUOTE]
did u even read the book or just use Chinese wikipedia?
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1251004]
Anyway, I want this thread to be more about the actual techniques, forms and history presented in the book than an argument between us. That said I would like to know if this is the passage you were thinking of in our earlier argument because if not I have missed something.[/QUOTE]
its the same passage. whats ur point?
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1251004]I don’t think so. It is not extremely clearly written and he doesn’t actually introduce all the techniques he mentions, but a fair amount of what I see is familier. [/QUOTE]
because you do not have any education in science and arts, and you speak Chinese on the level of a child.
the only discussion you can have is
-the book is very cool
-I know this book, I am also very cool
-the book mentions some kung fu styles, that is very cool
[QUOTE=bawang;1250998]its funny that you guys try to beef up your form and lineage cred by being mentioned in this book.
if you read the book closely you will realize the book actually brings shaolin kung fu great shame. it collected every single shaolin staff technique. and modern shaolin staff contains almost none.[/QUOTE]
Who care about ‘modern shaolin’. Whatever is practiced at modern shaolin is just what was done for them to do exhibitions. That’s modern shaolin.
BUT the actual traditional Shaolin Quan is being done all around the countryside and that traditional Shaolin is still alive in the small villages all over Henan. And that stuff makes an appearance through various teachers at the modern Shaolin temple, its still learnable.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1250974]BaWang,
Is this the section of the book you were referring to in our previous argument? About fist practice only beginning around this time?[/QUOTE]
There are various other books older than this one published in 1600s that shows and writes about many fist practice at Shaolin. That Shaolin Temple history book that came out a few years ago by Professor Maheir writes all about them.
Level of a Child huh? Thats actually true. There are children who have been born since I have been here and yet speak much better Chinese than me. Never the less my translation of said passage was a lot better than yours. It says nothing about fist being a new thing in the world, just that fist practice is not popular as staff and that Shaolin fist has not reached the zenith of Shaolin Staff. This is probably because fist has more variables than staff and so is more complex
This is a Kung Fu forum. It is written word. Very little actual physical training can go on here, so I suggest this is exactly the kind of thing we can talk about. By talking to other people who are interested I am certain we can unlock more of the manuals teachings.
Lets make this more about the manual, less about our personal disagreements.
@ All
For example, let me highlight something; Actually in the majority of the manual he uses Yin grip not to mean the overhand grip, but to mean still the standard underhand grip, except that the palm is facing down and so there is downwards and inside pressure on the staff. Yang grip is the same grip just with the wrist rotated so that the palm is up putting pressure upwards and outside on the staff. This small wrist movement is the essential feature of stopping a thrust to the heart. The difference is just twisting the staff in your hands while keeping a solid grip. The full change to overhand grip is also present but it is something that is confusing me with terminology used. It is also referred to as shortening the staff, which makes sense.