[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1285729]Just test your skill in Sanda/Sanshou tournament once and you will never say that again.[/QUOTE]
I honestly thought the days of people saying rubbish like guy b said was long gone, I thought the ufc had killed this sort of stupid view of how fighting should look and what hard training is, but I guess some people really do bury their head in the sand
[QUOTE=Frost;1285730]I honestly thought the days of people saying rubbish like guy b said was long gone, I thought the ufc had killed this sort of stupid view of how fighting should look and what hard training is, but I guess some people really do bury their head in the sand[/QUOTE]
I thought so too after UFC 3 back in September 9, 1994, that was almost 21 years ago.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1285726]What is relevant is being good. Lineage not relevant. Having lineage and not being good is just embarrassing. Jerry is good.[/quote]
Well, I am not alone, in fact I’m in the majority in thinking he and his friends are not good enough to position themselves as gatekeepers of WSLVT and try to standardize and regulate its instruction. That is embarrassing.
Maybe he was trying to teach you something? I would say yes probably. Looks like you didn’t learn whatever it was.
He got hit 4 times in a row with the same thing by a guy with 4 years experience in an “inferior” lineage who hadn’t even learned the system properly.
All he taught that guy was that he’s unable to learn and adapt. How could he have anything to teach him? The guy left the school thinking they were jokes, and never returned, and I was embarrassed for having taken him.
How did WSL train again?
By all accounts, WSL went out testing his skills in fights. Serious students at his school did the same.
If you are neither fighting nor doing hard sparring, you can’t say you are doing fight training. You have no reference for the training you do.
Sean’s guys go through various levels of sparring. They exhibit errors under pressure, but that is a good thing. That is actually the point; to draw out these errors only revealed under pressure! That’s what they take back into their drilling to correct.
If you are not doing any sort of sparring, playing chi-sau is just for fun, or worse, giving you a false impression that you’re learning how to fight. Which I think we all (except for you) clearly see in Jerry’s clip.
In Alan’s case he is not a wing chun practitioner so not comparable. He isn’t very good though, I have been to his school.
Alan’s fight team has proven their effectiveness by knocking people out in professional fights using Wing Chun you’re apparently too inexperienced to see! Their opponent’s aren’t making the complaints “that’s not Wing Chun” or “your teacher isn’t very good”. Instead, they’re probably complaining that they hit to hard!
Your idea of what Wing Chun is is pure fantasy if this clip of Jerry gets you all excited.
You were impressed by him “maintaining structure”. I guess by that you mean the way he was standing and holding his hands up? He was never in range or in danger to have it tested. He just stood outside and swatted at the Xing Yi guy’s hands, then ran away when he got too close. And you call this “excellent ving tsun under pressure”. lol
Ever heard say boxers argue over what sparring is or should look like? I haven’t.
If you have ever been in a pressured confrontation you know that fighting is messy, dirty and looks nothing like you see in films. Simple as that. I’ve stepped in the ring and kudos to anybody that does. But people bickering about what wing chun free fighting should look like, with what it seems to me is little to no experience is one of the reasons wing chun among most people outside of wing chun thinks it a joke.
I personally believe put a boxer with six months training against a wing chun guy regardless of lineage, the wing chun guy will lose. Boxers spar and pressure test very early on. From my humble findings wing chun does not.
Also personally I find wing chun in general doesn’t appeal to what I would call fighters. Don’t get me wrong there are a few. The majority are not. When I say fighters I mean Mentally. This in my own opinion, you might say or find different.
However as per the op original video. If Jerry? Is showing the best wing chun has to offer we are All in major problems but you think?
atekeepers of wsl legacy I whole heartedly hope not. Wing chun and constant retreating is not the way I have been taught. Side back steps if needed, creating angles, closing space, structure, relaxation, breathing, and good quick footwork is. That said when u have some giant guy ripped, the size of a small barn coming at you, things change.
I read this forum a lot barely participate due to there are way more qualified people on here than me to answer questions and put in there 2$. But this post annoyed me.
[QUOTE=WcForMe;1285736]Ever heard say boxers argue over what sparring is or should look like? I haven’t.
If you have ever been in a pressured confrontation you know that fighting is messy, dirty and looks nothing like you see in films. Simple as that. I’ve stepped in the ring and kudos to anybody that does. But people bickering about what wing chun free fighting should look like, with what it seems to me is little to no experience is one of the reasons wing chun among most people outside of wing chun thinks it a joke.
I personally believe put a boxer with six months training against a wing chun guy regardless of lineage, the wing chun guy will lose. Boxers spar and pressure test very early on. From my humble findings wing chun does not.
Also personally I find wing chun in general doesn’t appeal to what I would call fighters. Don’t get me wrong there are a few. The majority are not. When I say fighters I mean Mentally. This in my own opinion, you might say or find different.
However as per the op original video. If Jerry? Is showing the best wing chun has to offer we are All in major problems but you think?
atekeepers of wsl legacy I whole heartedly hope not. Wing chun and constant retreating is not the way I have been taught. Side back steps if needed, creating angles, closing space, structure, relaxation, breathing, and good quick footwork is. That said when u have some giant guy ripped, the size of a small barn coming at you, things change.
I read this forum a lot barely participate due to there are way more qualified people on here than me to answer questions and put in there 2$. But this post annoyed me.[/QUOTE]
Nice post and spot on in all your points
[QUOTE=LFJ;1285735]By all accounts, WSL went out testing his skills in fights. Serious students at his school did the same.[/QUOTE]
I think you will find that many of the fights WSL participated in were something like what you see in the Jerry vs xing yi clip. This is the Chinese style skill test with body shots and open hands designed to save face. Others were very low skilled confrontations. Still others were actual fights. None looked like a relaxed gloved sparring session in a comfortable gym. WSL was not gloving up and doing MMA for good reason- as the clips which have been posted show, gloved wing chun doesn’t work and actually degrades wing chun skill. Empty handed testing is essential.
If you are neither fighting nor doing hard sparring, you can’t say you are doing fight training. You have no reference for the training you do.
Sparring as shown is absolutely the worst thing you can do for your wing chun. Sparring empty hand is beneficial. Fighting is a test.
Sean’s guys go through various levels of sparring. They exhibit errors under pressure, but that is a good thing. That is actually the point; to draw out these errors only revealed under pressure! That’s what they take back into their drilling to correct.
They are learning not to do wing chun. It is akin to sprint training wearing ankle weights- very counter productive and degrading of actual skill.
If you are not doing any sort of sparring, playing chi-sau is just for fun, or worse, giving you a false impression that you’re learning how to fight. Which I think we all (except for you) clearly see in Jerry’s clip.
I train empty handed, never gloves.
Alan’s fight team has proven their effectiveness by knocking people out in professional fights using Wing Chun you’re apparently too inexperienced to see! Their opponent’s aren’t making the complaints “that’s not Wing Chun” or “your teacher isn’t very good”. Instead, they’re probably complaining that they hit to hard!
That’s fine, but what they do doesn’t contain wing chun strategy, structure or movement, and so is not wing chun.
Your idea of what Wing Chun is is pure fantasy if this clip of Jerry gets you all excited.
No better clip has been posted. Seans clip is a gloved sparring clip. It contains no realistic fighting movements because there is no danger and no pressure involved. Movement is incredibly slow. Stepping is non existent. Structure is missing. The only vestige of wing chun is the wing chun shape punch which fires off occasionally like a dead, drilled maneuver. It is quite a bad clip.
People who never train bare handed always think this sort of stuff is the real thing. They couldn’t be further from the truth. Fights are fast. Nobody moves as they do in a gloved gym sparring session.
[QUOTE=Frost;1285730]I honestly thought the days of people saying rubbish like guy b said was long gone, I thought the ufc had killed this sort of stupid view of how fighting should look and what hard training is, but I guess some people really do bury their head in the sand[/QUOTE]
Do you train much bare fisted wing chun?
[QUOTE=Frost;1285708]They aren’t falling to pieces because they aren’t under pressure, no gloves, no head shots, no hard body shots its patter cake sparring, his structure doesn’t fall apart because its not actually pressured.
Your idea of pressured and mine are vastly different two guys trading light body shots and no head shots isn’t being pressured its an exchange and nothing more, structure is never under pressure until you are in fear of actually being hurt[/QUOTE]
Realistic speed is pressure, precise movement is pressure, good structure creates pressure, spectators are pressure, repuation is pressure.
This is a controlled test according to much used conventions. It contains plenty of pressure, much more in this case than a relaxed gloved sparring session in a gym with friends.
Hard contact without gloves increases the pressure, but pressure is a continuum and there is plenty here.
[QUOTE=Frost;1285727]I dont expect you to be awed, I’m quite aware how misguided your views are but I’m simply pointing out you camt compare a bare hand slap fest to actual contact work
As for;
A there being hard body shots in that clip
B any head shots or
C gloves relieving pressure you are seriously deluded and there’s no point speaking to you lol[/QUOTE]
I’m just surprised you can’t differentiate between skill and non-skill. Skill can be present no matter the level of contact.
In this clip hard body shots are agreed and head shots with open hands are agreed. Standard rules for this sort of thing.
Gloves relieve pressure because they save you from hurting your hands and they make targetting much less important. Unfortunately they also ruin timing, power generation, and target aquisition. This is why intelligent fighters train often without gloves. Do you train much without them?
[QUOTE=Sean66;1285728]This couldn’t be further from the truth.
Sparring in my school is trained progressively and never “too soon”.
Sparring (in all its forms, not just “hard” sparring) against people of other styles only helps us to discover weaknesses and to correct/finely tune - not abandon wing chun.
If you don’t see the wing chun movement, techniques and strategies being used (sometimes with success, sometimes not) in my clips, then, sadly, I don’t think I can help you.
It’s ok, though. To each his own.
I, for one, don’t want my students to be slap happy kung fu fantasy warriors who talk sans cesse about structure, simplicity, efficacity, directness, etc, etc, without ever putting anything to the test.[/QUOTE]
I recommend some bare handed sparring.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1285729]Just test your skill in Sanda/Sanshou tournament once and you will never say that again.[/QUOTE]
Is Muay thai good enough? Kyokushin? Kudo? Judo?
I’m sorry but the skill level in that clip was attrocious.
[QUOTE=Frost;1285730]I honestly thought the days of people saying rubbish like guy b said was long gone, I thought the ufc had killed this sort of stupid view of how fighting should look and what hard training is, but I guess some people really do bury their head in the sand[/QUOTE]
It must be sad when you can’t control the internet.
Go and try some bare fisted “sparring” and report back. Even better film it.
[QUOTE=WcForMe;1285736]Ever heard say boxers argue over what sparring is or should look like? I haven’t.[/QUOTE]
If you have ever been in a pressured confrontation you know that fighting is messy, dirty and looks nothing like you see in films. Simple as that. I’ve stepped in the ring and kudos to anybody that does. But people bickering about what wing chun free fighting should look like, with what it seems to me is little to no experience is one of the reasons wing chun among most people outside of wing chun thinks it a joke.
There is no wing chun fighting on the internet. There is Alan Orr, who is not doing wing chun but is competing in sports competitions. And there is this French group who appear to be losing their wing chun also. The common thread is sparring methodology vs drilling/fighting methodology, gloves, lack of realistic pressure testing. I think it is legitimate to comment.
I personally believe put a boxer with six months training against a wing chun guy regardless of lineage, the wing chun guy will lose. Boxers spar and pressure test very early on. From my humble findings wing chun does not.
“a boxer”
Sure, every boxer in the world will beat every wing chun guy in the world. Lol
If Jerry? Is showing the best wing chun has to offer we are All in major problems but you think?
Show me a better wing chun clip. I will be happy, believe me. At the moment I am only depressed that no better clip exists.
Pretty obvious why people are ignoring you now. :eek:
You go on with your “realistic” no-contact pressure testing then.
Leave the actual hitting and being hit to the real martial artists.
If you’re the only one doing “Wing Chun”, then so be it.
n this clip hard body shots are agreed and head shots with open hands are agreed. Standard rules for this sort of thing.
I didn’t see any hard body shots in that clip.
Gloves relieve pressure because they save you from hurting your hands and they make targetting much less important. Unfortunately they also ruin timing, power generation, and target aquisition. This is why intelligent fighters train often without gloves. Do you train much without them?
I think most schools train the “free form chi sao” sort of sparring/fighting/whatever you want to call it, like that shown in a large number of Phillipp Bayer clips, with bare hands, but wear light gloves, cups, mouthpieces, and shin pads when sparring from outside contact, including kicks, clinching, takedowns, etc. With perhaps occasional forays into heavier gloves, headgear, etc.
There are too many possibilities for accidental injury if you are working through multiple ranges without some form of protective gear. Injuries can be permanent, even career-ending, and treatment, especially dental, very expensive. As a school owner you may run the risk of lawsuits if you are seen to have too cavalier an attitude to student safety. Keeping a level of control that keeps everyone safe while still allowing realism in training is not easy, and every now and then my instructor has to rein people in when they start going too hard.
At one of my post instructor level WC gradings I did “freeform chi sao” with my instructor barehanded for about 20 minutes, weapons sparring with heavy padding, stickfighting jackets and helmets and cricket gloves, and ten continuous rounds of sparring (hard hits to the body, tags to the head per your “standard” conventions) with multiple fresh instructor level students, wearing light MMA gloves, cup, shin pads and mouthpiece.
I finished unable to stand for a few minutes, multiple contusions including a handprint on my ribs that left a bruise so perfectly shaped that three fingers and part of a fourth could be clearly made out, and two black eyes. Nearly all of which came from the “free form chi sao”. It was meant to be hard and punishing and it was.
I think “intelligent fighters” use protective gear as appropriate, and there is absolutely a place for it. I’ve had enough experience with both bare hands and light gloves to be able to function well enough with either.
Over the last five or so years I’ve had about $65000 of dental work, some of which is martial arts related, including two implants. I don’t spar any more due to the potential financial implications. I can still kick and move pretty well for a guy my age, but my goals these days are about remaining strong, supple and mobile, not being able to despatch mortal enemies or be a bada$$ streetfighter, whatever that means.
Jiu Jitsu, I roll pretty hard for a 60 year old four times a week with just a mouthpiece against all comers including nationally ranked brown belts in their twenties and a masters’ black belt world champion. I’m not sure many on this forum (if there are in fact many on this forum any more) will still be training so often and so pain free at my age if they are not sensible with their training methods and expectations.
I’m not trying to big note myself here. I would expect most decent WC practitioners who have trained for more than 20 years to have similar stories. I would expect to be the norm rather than the exception.
[QUOTE=anerlich;1285766]I think most schools train the “free form chi sao” sort of sparring/fighting/whatever you want to call it, like that shown in a large number of Phillipp Bayer clips, with bare hands, but wear light gloves, cups, mouthpieces, and shin pads when sparring from outside contact, including kicks, clinching, takedowns, etc. With perhaps occasional forays into heavier gloves, headgear, etc.[/quote]
Exactly. I don’t believe anyone who only does bare handed training is actually getting hit hard in the face, despite their macho “we never wear gloves” attitude. That’s the kind of thing that causes real stress, and it’s important to train at that level for stress inoculation. Otherwise you never reach your breaking point and draw out your errors for correction. Then you can only progress so much.
If all one is doing is bare handed training, it’s unlikely they are being rocked by hard punches and forced to maintain structure and fight strategy against that level of pressure. It’s much easier to maintain composure and think you are doing well when you aren’t worried about getting blasted in the face. And you can only train at that level safely when you use at least light gloves and head gear.
- Boxing isn’t fighting
Enough said, ever.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1285769]Enough said, ever.[/QUOTE]
i think he is trolling, i think he is that upset no one ever posts here these days he is trying to drum up support, no one can really believe the things he is coming out with 
:eek:
[QUOTE=LFJ;1285767]Exactly. I don’t believe anyone who only does bare handed training is actually getting hit hard in the face, despite their macho “we never wear gloves” attitude. That’s the kind of thing that causes real stress, and it’s important to train at that level for stress inoculation. Otherwise you never reach your breaking point and draw out your errors for correction. Then you can only progress so much.
If all one is doing is bare handed training, it’s unlikely they are being rocked by hard punches and forced to maintain structure and fight strategy against that level of pressure. It’s much easier to maintain composure and think you are doing well when you aren’t worried about getting blasted in the face. And you can only train at that level safely when you use at least light gloves and head gear.[/QUOTE]
Why do you think hard punches are not involved in bare handed training? It is actually essential to train this way, otherwise you are kidding yourself. You build to it, do it, then back off for a while. It isn’t something you can do every week, but you need to do it or you are training yourself to ring fight with gloves on, i.e. a game, not a fight.
There is stress in full contact bare fist, believe me. There is nothing of that stress in gloved sparring.
FGloves also throw off timing, stucture, distancing, defence and targetting. Not things you want to do really.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1285777]Why do you think hard punches are not involved in bare handed training? It is actually essential to train this way, otherwise you are kidding yourself.[/QUOTE]
Let’s see your bare handed training then. I’m interested in how hard you’re getting punched in the face with bare knuckles…