[QUOTE=LFJ;1285673]No. Vastly different, I would say.
To my knowledge, he was mainly a student of Cliff, but claims WSL direct because he may have done a little training at the school when he was like 10? I’m not so sure.[/QUOTE]
Cool…thx
[QUOTE=guy b.;1285650]1. Chinese etiquette. This is a master of a branch of xing yi. He is not engaging out of politeness.
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What is wing chun bridging? Show me a better clip.[/QUOTE]
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seems like a cop out. he didn’t act the same later in the clip when he crossed hands with a much smaller ‘master’. My assumption still stands.
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It’s not for me to teach you these things. If you think that always backing up/running away and refusing to engage is proper WC bridging, anything I show you will not make much difference.
[QUOTE=Frost;1285659]Nope called him aron brum one of alans students 
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?54031-Chu-Sau-Lei-Wing-Chun-student-Aaron-Baum-winning-10th-Legion-MMA-title Any of his fights are better than this because his structure is tested against someone trying to hit him hard[/QUOTE]
That explains my confusion- his name is Aron Baum, not Aron Brum. Nothing in those clips is wing chun. Someone is trying to hit him, it is true. But they tell us nothing about wing chun, other than the fact that Alan Orr’s group don’t do it.
As are Seans students
Seans students are trying but appear to have real problems with movement outside of drills. This is why they move robotically and predictably.
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1285682]1. seems like a cop out. he didn’t act the same later in the clip when he crossed hands with a much smaller ‘master’. My assumption still stands.
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It’s not for me to teach you these things. If you think that always backing up/running away and refusing to engage is proper WC bridging, anything I show you will not make much difference.[/QUOTE]
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The first guy is much more important.
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You can’t say “doesn’t understand wing chun bridging” and then shy away from explaining what you mean by that term. It could mean any number of things. For your criticism to be meaningful you need to explain what it is you mean. I have no idea what the term means to you.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1285673]No. Vastly different, I would say.
To my knowledge, he was mainly a student of Cliff, but claims WSL direct because he may have done a little training at the school when he was like 10? I’m not so sure.[/QUOTE]
I think lineage not that relevant.
Jerry is good. I’m not sure if PB is good. He looks good in clips, but the clips are very limited. His guys often don’t look good. That doesn’t mean he isn’t good of course.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1285663]I didn’t see any “ving tsun working” in that video. You’ve got to be either a student of his or joking. He did absolutely nothing in that entire video except flinch, run away, and throw some one-off and reaching punches that overextended him, or just hugged when it got too close.
And I’ll tell you, I’ve been to his school in HK and I guarantee you neither he nor his classes do any sort of free sparring. All they do is play chi-sau/gwo-sau games. Whatever your opinion of what problems Sean’s students need to work on (which is the point of training), Jerry’s are doing nothing near the level of what is shown in Sean’s clips. I’m surprised at your opinion of this video.[/QUOTE]
I’ve been to his school as well. Find me a better clip of wing chun free movement. None exists, as far as I am aware.
[QUOTE=Sean66;1285658]Hey guy b,
I honestly don’t know what you’re referring to, because in my clips I show my students actually sparring (moving freely) against non-wing chun guys.
In this clip, for example, one of my students goes 12 rounds with two (experienced) friends from the local mma gym who are preparing for a competition:
https://www.facebook.com/sean.wood.9843/videos/10205459715308979/
And in the other youtube videos there are also long sequences of free sparring against opponents who are unconcerned with any type of face-saving etiquette (actually trying to knock your block off and/or take you down and submit you).
Now of course there are problems, both strategic and technical, that have to be ironed out in order to improve my student’s performance. But at least we are working on it in the “lab” of real, full-contact sparring against un-cooperative opponents.[/QUOTE]
Hi Sean,
I have no desire to offend you. Your students certainly are sparring. I just don’t think their wing chun is strong enough to survive the process. They do best when they don’t stand like wing chun mannequins and when they punch and move naturally. For them wing chun has not been made natural. It looks to be an impediment rather than a benefit in what they are doing.
Guy
[QUOTE=Frost;1285661]I wouldn’t worry too much Sean, the fact that he equates what is happening in this clip as being anything like what is going on in yours really speaks volumes about what he views as wing chun and actual contact work[/QUOTE]
I’m not equating it to Seans latest clip which shows some people sparring while failing to make their wing chun work and doing better when they abandon it.
I’m saying that it is the best clip of free moving wing chun, with wing chun structure and tactics not falling to bits, available on the internet.
If you disagree then show me a better one.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1285693]1. The first guy is much more important.
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You can’t say “doesn’t understand wing chun bridging” and then shy away from explaining what you mean by that term. It could mean any number of things. For your criticism to be meaningful you need to explain what it is you mean. I have no idea what the term means to you.[/QUOTE]
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Nonsense, he didn’t run because he was ‘so important’. If that was the case, he simply would not have accepted the offer to touch hands in the first place. Since you obviously are going to defend this no matter what anyone says, I see no point in going further on this.
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How many times must I repeat myself? You’re just arguing to argue now because you can’t be that dense. For the last time, he was constantly backing up, running away and not engaging into proper WC striking range. That means he doesn’t understand WC bridging and engagement. So the opposite of that must be what I’m talking about. It’s really simple.
I’m far from shy discussing WC concept/principle, but it’s clearly you’re going to defend him no matter what, and you’re most likely just going to argue with whatever I present anyway. So I’ll give you few WC concepts that might help you with understanding what I feel is necessary for proper WC engagement and bridging, and you can decide for yourself if he was doing these things or not.
- First simple concept is occupying space with fwd energy & good structure on centerline - without giving up space (in my lineage we call this maximizing your credit on the centerline).
- Another is you don’t move, I don’t move - You move, I get there first.
- And a final big one is - loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung.
- Chinese etiquette. This is a master of a branch of xing yi. He is not engaging out of politeness.
That’s what I think is the central issue with this clip. There seems to be a pronounced disparity in the attitude of the participants. Wing Chun guy is tentative and defensive. Xingyi guy appears way overconfident, like he knows he has no chance of the WC guy really trying to hit (rather than tag) him. He overreaches, rushes in wildly, hold his hands low, sticks his chin out, leans forward. Got tagged a fair bit even though WC guy was trying really hard not to hit him with any power. No attempts by either to circle, sidestep or move offline. Back and forth (in WC guy’s case, mostly back).
This looks more like an exhibition to make the Xingyi guy look dominant, with both participants playing their allotted roles. The WC guy might well be good but doesn’t get a chance to show it here. He has much better structure than the Xingyi guy but only because the Xingyi guy basically shows next to none.
[Admission: I didn’t watch the whole clip. I think I watched enough.]
I did Xingyi and Bagua for about 5 years back in the '80s. If that guy is a Xingyi master, my faith in my decisions to move on to WC and Jiu Jitsu are reinforced massively.
If Alan Orr’s guys don’t do Wing Chun, I think I’d rather do what they’re doing rather than the Wing Chun shown in the clip.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1285697]I’m not equating it to Seans latest clip which shows some people sparring while failing to make their wing chun work and doing better when they abandon it.
I’m saying that it is the best clip of free moving wing chun, with wing chun structure and tactics not falling to bits, available on the internet.
If you disagree then show me a better one.[/QUOTE]
They aren’t falling to pieces because they aren’t under pressure, no gloves, no head shots, no hard body shots its patter cake sparring, his structure doesn’t fall apart because its not actually pressured.
Your idea of pressured and mine are vastly different two guys trading light body shots and no head shots isn’t being pressured its an exchange and nothing more, structure is never under pressure until you are in fear of actually being hurt
[QUOTE=Frost;1285708]They aren’t falling to pieces because they aren’t under pressure, no gloves, no head shots, no hard body shots its patter cake sparring, his structure doesn’t fall apart because its not actually pressured.
Your idea of pressured and mine are vastly different two guys trading light body shots and no head shots isn’t being pressured its an exchange and nothing more, structure is never under pressure until you are in fear of actually being hurt[/QUOTE]
Agree! Neither opponent tried to knock the other opponent down/out. The “intention” was missing.
In the following clip, the “knock down intention” can be seen. If you have experienced the true “full contact”, it’s very difficult to feel pressure in “non-full contact”.
When “full power head punch” is used, you can then feel the pressure.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1285694]I think lineage not that relevant.[/quote]
He wouldn’t have been on Fight Quest otherwise. Would have no students without having done Fight Quest. And no one would likely know of him if he and his friends didn’t try to position themselves as gatekeepers of “WSLVT”… Pretty relevant, I’d say.
Jerry is good.
At what? And how do you know?
Good is also relative. If you suck, and he beats you. You’ll think he’s good. In that case, good could just mean he doesn’t suck as much as you.
I took a friend around to find schools in HK a couple years ago. He had 4 years total MA experience under a teacher who only taught him chi-sau and hard sparring, and he was able to easily dispatch Jerry in chi-sau, hitting him with the same thing 4 times in a row.
Does it mean anything to get hit in chi-sau? Sure, maybe not, but 4 times in a row with the same thing means he was unable to learn and adapt. He couldn’t cope with a guy with 4 years experience who hadn’t even learned the forms, didn’t even know they existed…
This was also after he reluctantly agreed to roll a few times after refusing to allow him to do any sparring or even chi-sau with his students on “sparring night” because they “might freak out if they did something they weren’t familiar with” (a red flag that they don’t actually do any serious training).
And it was also after he and his buddy Mark identified his rolling style as Yip Chun lineage (he wasn’t even sure of his lineage) and shared little condescending smirks with one another, then preceded to get hit 4 times in a row, with the same thing…
So I’d say his chi-sau is not very good from what I saw firsthand, and this video shows he doesn’t know how to spar either. Not surprising, considering “sparring night” to them means “open chi-sau”.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1285695]I’ve been to his school as well.[/quote]
Then you’d know even on their “sparring night”, all they do is play chi-sau games. There is no free contact sparring whatsoever, much less against non-VT. There is not even one piece of sparring gear in their school.
So again, you cannot even begin to relate what he is doing with what Alan’s or Sean’s students are doing (hard sparring and MMA fights), regardless of your opinion of them. I would say he’s not even doing or teaching fight training.
Find me a better clip of wing chun free movement. None exists, as far as I am aware.
In your opinion. Not my problem.
[QUOTE=Frost;1285708]They aren’t falling to pieces because they aren’t under pressure, no gloves, no head shots, no hard body shots its patter cake sparring, his structure doesn’t fall apart because its not actually pressured.
Your idea of pressured and mine are vastly different two guys trading light body shots and no head shots isn’t being pressured its an exchange and nothing more, structure is never under pressure until you are in fear of actually being hurt[/QUOTE]
Gloves don’t create pressure, they relieve it. Head shots are present. Hard body shots are present from the xing yi, but are avoided due to movement and structure.
Light sparring done well is much more revealing of skill than the extremely slow gloved contact sparring that you appear to advocate. There is no skill development, no structural development, no movement development and very little skill in the clips you expect me to be awed by.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1285709]Agree! Neither opponent tried to knock the other opponent down/out. The “intention” was missing.
In the following clip, the “knock down intention” can be seen. If you have experienced the true “full contact”, it’s very difficult to feel pressure in “non-full contact”.
//youtu.be/tf044Rg3Fzc
[/QUOTE]
Terrible clip, no structure, no movement, no speed, no skill. Merely two untrained guys hitting each other as hard as they can. Pointless.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1285716]He wouldn’t have been on Fight Quest otherwise. Would have no students without having done Fight Quest. And no one would likely know of him if he and his friends didn’t try to position themselves as gatekeepers of “WSLVT”… Pretty relevant, I’d say.[/QUOTE]
What is relevant is being good. Lineage not relevant. Having lineage and not being good is just embarrassing. Jerry is good.
At what? And how do you know?
Good is also relative. If you suck, and he beats you. You’ll think he’s good. In that case, good could just mean he doesn’t suck as much as you.
I took a friend around to find schools in HK a couple years ago. He had 4 years total MA experience under a teacher who only taught him chi-sau and hard sparring, and he was able to easily dispatch Jerry in chi-sau, hitting him with the same thing 4 times in a row.
Does it mean anything to get hit in chi-sau? Sure, maybe not, but 4 times in a row with the same thing means he was unable to learn and adapt. He couldn’t cope with a guy with 4 years experience who hadn’t even learned the forms, didn’t even know they existed…
This was also after he reluctantly agreed to roll a few times after refusing to allow him to do any sparring or even chi-sau with his students on “sparring night” because they “might freak out if they did something they weren’t familiar with” (a red flag that they don’t actually do any serious training).
And it was also after he and his buddy Mark identified his rolling style as Yip Chun lineage (he wasn’t even sure of his lineage) and shared little condescending smirks with one another, then preceded to get hit 4 times in a row, with the same thing…
So I’d say his chi-sau is not very good from what I saw firsthand, and this video shows he doesn’t know how to spar either. Not surprising, considering “sparring night” to them means “open chi-sau”.
Mark is not good, Jerry is good. Maybe he was trying to teach you something? I would say yes probably. Looks like you didn’t learn whatever it was. He has definitely sparred hard, but skill development in that direction is limited once you know what it is.
Then you’d know even on their “sparring night”, all they do is play chi-sau games. There is no free contact sparring whatsoever, much less against non-VT. There is not even one piece of sparring gear in their school.
How did WSL train again?
So again, you cannot even begin to relate what he is doing with what Alan’s or Sean’s students are doing (hard sparring and MMA fights), regardless of your opinion of them. I would say he’s not even doing or teaching fight training.
His skill level is far above Sean’s students given that their structure is in pieces in the clips posted, they are incredibly slow, and they show no wing chun movement whatsoever. I think in their case hard sparring has come too soon and is merely teaching them to abandon wing chun. In Alan’s case he is not a wing chun practitioner so not comparable. He isn’t very good though, I have been to his school.
In your opinion
It is all we have at the end of the day
[QUOTE=guy b.;1285724]Gloves don’t create pressure, they relieve it. Head shots are present. Hard body shots are present from the xing yi, but are avoided due to movement and structure.
Light sparring done well is much more revealing of skill than the extremely slow gloved contact sparring that you appear to advocate. There is no skill development, no structural development, no movement development and very little skill in the clips you expect me to be awed by.[/QUOTE]
I dont expect you to be awed, I’m quite aware how misguided your views are but I’m simply pointing out you camt compare a bare hand slap fest to actual contact work
As for;
A there being hard body shots in that clip
B any head shots or
C gloves relieving pressure you are seriously deluded and there’s no point speaking to you lol
His skill level is far above Sean’s students given that their structure is in pieces in the clips posted, they are incredibly slow, and they show no wing chun movement whatsoever. I think in their case hard sparring has come too soon and is merely teaching them to abandon wing chun.
This couldn’t be further from the truth.
Sparring in my school is trained progressively and never “too soon”.
Sparring (in all its forms, not just “hard” sparring) against people of other styles only helps us to discover weaknesses and to correct/finely tune - not abandon wing chun.
If you don’t see the wing chun movement, techniques and strategies being used (sometimes with success, sometimes not) in my clips, then, sadly, I don’t think I can help you.
It’s ok, though. To each his own.
I, for one, don’t want my students to be slap happy kung fu fantasy warriors who talk sans cesse about structure, simplicity, efficacity, directness, etc, etc, without ever putting anything to the test.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1285725]Terrible clip, no structure, no movement, no speed, no skill. Merely two untrained guys hitting each other as hard as they can. Pointless.[/QUOTE]
Just test your skill in Sanda/Sanshou tournament once and you will never say that again.