Emei Bai Mei

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
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Last weekend I travelled with my Sifu (of ZiMen & YingMen) to a town known as QingJiang. QingJiang is the martial village of JiangXi Province (it is like what CangZhou is to Hebei and Wudanis to HuBei). We went to visit fellow masters of our arts and the current ZhangMen of ZiMen quan. It was more than interesting to say the least.

Anyway,…we met an old practitioner of BaiMei. I was enthusiastic to find a practitioner all the way here in JiangXi so I showed him JBT and he exclaimed that is not Bai Mei. Then he performed a set and itwas ultra-different to say the least. Then I thanked him and asked about my Babuhuzhang (which is anEmei art I studied years ago claiming a Bai Mei origin). He then said that he had seen Babuhuzhang but in Emei BaiMei is the art he practised.

So of course I asked further questions and then he related how the nameof the style he practises came to be known as Bai Mei Quan.

He elaborated that in the Southern Song times there were many martial practises on Emei Shan. As an example the ‘Emei 12 Zhuang Gong’ as practised by Venerable Monk BaiYun. As well as his art as founded by DeYuan who mimicked the ape’s TiaoYe(jumping/leaping) and TengNuo (rise & fall gallop) motions and then developed a set of Ape Fist. In oneof the manuals which he showed it had a section that explained that DeYuan white hair when he was older including his eyebrows and as a result he became known as Bai Mei Fa Shi (Venerable Master Bai Mei). Generations later adopted the name from their founder and the style becameknown as BaiMeiQuan.

Anyways, it was highly interesting the set is relatively short and simple, combat light and agile, movements soft but not so compact, but totally different to the Chueng Lai Chuen Clans.

Regards
Wu Chan Long

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shaolin master

cool, did it use the CLC salute from bak mei?

Was there phoenix eye strikes? Was there the FCTT tell us more, please.

sounds like you are seeing the best masters and styles around, good for you mate.

Did he know of CLC?

TAKE CARE
FT:)

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also

what was the names of there forms if you could remember?

was there moves that looked like the usual bak mei batt faat?

cheers
FT

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Please ShaolinMaster…

Please let us know some more!

Any tidbit would be of use !

We of Vietnam lineage are aware of the existence of other lineages outside of Grand Master Cheng Lai Chuen as well as the differences between different generation of practioners under Grand Master Cheung Lai Chuen: it has influenced the theory and practice of Pei Mei in Vietnam. I as a practitioner however cannot as yet pull all the threads to gether.

Any information would of use and even perhaps if I could reach you somehow this would be of great benefit to us to gain your insight.

Much regards,

EAZ

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I would prefer to trace my lineage to Bak Mei, the originator of the system. I do not study Bak Mei, but lineage is very important in my opinion.

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custom

what shaolin master is trying to say is that there is bak mei kung fu that doesnt trace to CLC. I was told a story that CLC created the system from all his previous training and his awesome fighting techniques.

Futsan BAK MEI also dont claim CLC as grandmaster

Omei BAK MEI too

:slight_smile:

FT

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Pak Mei Lineage

Firstly, thank you Shaolin Master for the great story. A tremendous little collection of details. I too would like to hear your interpretation of the physical aspect of the art.

Hi Custom,
The debate concerns parallell lineages to Grand Master Cheung Lai Cheun, that trace back to the Monk Pak Mei. Grand Master claims himself as 4th generation, and as the first to introduce the art to the secular world. The actual existance of a real “Pak Mei” is still a matter of conjecture and myth from most points of view. Its not like white eyebrows were rare…right?

These other lineages assume the obvious probability that there were other students in the second and third generation, perhaps monks, whom created their own branches.

This is all well and good, and logically acceptable at face value.

But, in my humble opinion, the Pak Mei taught by Grand Master Cheung Lai Cheun is not only the art but the man who carried it. What he passed on is from him, regardless of name, and its reputation is based upon his interpretation. I suspect the arts are as SM indicated, related in name only…or??

FT,
I believe Futshan has CLC lineage as well as the “Old” style. SM is a much better reference on that than I however, I’m sure. We’re in Chinatown this Sunday for Lion Dancing…see ya?

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yum cha

Hiya,

I meant the eddie chongs bak mei has no relation to CLC IS THAT RIGHT?

may see you in china town…has asing come back from china yet?

FT

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Hi FT

It appears Eddie Chong has a different group of patterns, and claims to be Futsan, this is true. Sifu knows people in Futsan that do the same as they do in Hong Kong, more or less, too. They are friendly with Guangzhou.

And of course, SM has his Pak Mei from Futsan, but I’ve only seen little bits. Familiar that they were, but not exact.

Those are the facts (?) in my possession.

Sifu is back, yes, with pix and video. Possibly something worth posting on the website. Watching video at the after-lion-dance dinner…

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Response

I’ll attempt to answer all questions:

FT’s Questions :

Did it use the CLC salute from bak mei?
–> NO

Was there phoenix eye strikes? Was there the FCTT tell us more?
–> there were a few fist strikes but honestly I couldn’t see the fists shape clearly and I didn’t care about it too much. FCTT yes this is inherit in most styles, howeve it was coupled with complete stepping.

Did he know of CLC
–> I didn’t ask

How many forms
–> Only One ‘BaiMeiQuan’

Batt Fatt
–> I guess from a motionary point of view yes but from a power and supporting structure view no. So in essence no.

EAZ,
–> I don’t knowall that much about the vietnam histories of BM but I thought most influences came from ChoyLiFut, HungMen and other Hakka arts.

Custom156,BSH,
–> There are no provable legitimate lineages tracing to Bai Mei as Bai Mei as a person is not provable (except in a few novels which historically had some factual element). World Bai Mei is Cheung Lai Chuen’s (mostly) and he was as worthy as any even if it was called Chueng’s Fist it would still be good. It is a chinese cultural thing few Chinese masters would claim to have made something up,they usually ascribe it to someone else usually in legend. This creates a problem.

–>What I am saying is that another art named BAI MEI QUAN from Emei Mt bears no resemblance or tieto CLC’s Bai Mei. However this also means that other arts by that name exist. So as YC said they relate in name only.

Regarding the Futsan Saga (I’llbe there in 2 weeks time with my students who’ll be visiting) I have spoken to 2 of my uncles and I will meet them then. I’ll also be researching Hung Men at the same time. I’ll withhold comments on this until after the expidtion.

FT/EAZ, as I’d be around Guangdong but am also returning to MeiZhou (Hakka city) are there any particular styles you wish to know more about.

YC, regards to Leung Sifu.

Cheers,
Wu Chan Long

PS : When I complete all 8 Zi of ZiMen Quan (I’m up to 5) I will return to QingJiang to study the weapons sets. At that time I will ask the EmeiBaimequan practitioner further questions.

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Interesting SM that only one set is noted & this is the way it is for what I call old frame Hakka Tong Long just one set with most everything else based on testing application in a way that the testing becomes more dangerous more real over time. Have you seen other hands Hakka or not Hakka that also keep to the one set way & basing getting skill on testing or real practice.

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Eddie Chong’s Bak Mei is from Futsan, does have some of the same sets as other lineages, and does not have direct lineage to CLC folks. As I’ve read, his lineage is same as Zhong Luo in San Fransisco (who’s father in still in Futsan).

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Shaolin, the Bak Mei that I was taught (My Sifu preferred to call it Ngor Mei P’ai) is symetrical rather than one-sided, is the Omei Bai-Mei also symetrical as well?

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Diamond Talons,

As I have seen there are many still like this. However,it makes no real difference. Once set many methods drilled individually and studied in all its complexity or many sets which essentially drill again except using sets. It doesn’t matter how it is done as long as it is done :slight_smile:

Bolt,
Futsan later (give me 2 weeks).

TenTigers
Symmetrical / Once sided …BakMei is not that mono-conceptualised. The BMQ of EM is under your classification symmetrical.

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SHAOLIN MASTER

Thanks for the answers, did you say the form was farely short?

was the hands short range or both long fist and short?

Did it come with chi kung?

have fin in guangzhou!:slight_smile:

FT

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Most Emei styles (in fact most styles out here as well) are relatively internal based so we practise qigong within the practise of the methods so to speak. Although I didn’t specifically ask my sifu (BTW I have become Tudi now) mentioned this as well as I have trained in this methodology previously.
In the arts here I have found that there are not separate specific entities as much as contained within and taught as pieces but of the same puzzle if that makes sense.

Yes the set was relatively short but still longer than any one of the three main BM forms (JBT,SBM,MFCL). Shorter relative to a standard Hung Ga or ChoyLifut set as an example but hakka arts tend to be shorter drills than most.

I always have fun. In fact I may not even return home as I am having literally the time of my life. Now I am older, my language skills are really improved and I have long term friends life is better than a dream. I have trained and know so many legendary teachers the knowledge and memories of a lifetime. I mean I go to a banquet almost everyday curtosy of friends, businessmen, teachers and associates. Life here is good to say the least.

thanks
Wu Chan Long

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Shaolin Master

First and foremost im glad to hear your having a great time in China, also glad to hear of your new place with your sifu.
Im hoping to visit with my sifu myself before to long, there is much to see and do. Today however was my sifus mums birthday. She is in her eightys and vibrant and fit as can be - still practicing Tai Chi. Its insightfull to realise just how far these skills have been passed down - intact.

Something you said picked up my interest, forgive me for being so specific and i will understand if this is something you do not wish to eleborate on. Still ill ask anyway if you will forgive me:)

You made mention that after you performed your set this gentleman stated something along the lines of “thats not Bak Mei”. Im very curious if he expanded at all on this comment and if so what in his opinion was missing or changed?

I would also be highly curious as to what this gentlemans opinion was of Chung Lai Chun Bak Mei?

Anyway i know this is somewhat opening you up to fire so i will respect your wishes if this is not something you wish to delve into.

Hope you continue to enjoy your time there, with any luck i may be able to visit you. Would be great to have a yum cha in another country with someone from this forum:)

All the best, happy playing
Jon

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FT said…“Did it come with chi kung?”

I want mine with a Coke and fries:p

All kidding aside this is a good thread I’d like to see continue,
I’m just to tired to ask deep questions,I’ll give it a try.

Is Ngor Mei pronounced in English Nor Mei?

Is Ngor Mei the same as Omei??

I have heard from more than one Bai Mei Sifu that CLC called
his art Nor Mei Shaolin before changing the name to Bai Mei.

If Bai Mei is pure Taoist as some claim then why did CLC
have his pic taken wearing Shaolin robes?

Maybe Taoist and Buddest go together like garlic and ginger?

Thoughts anyone?

SM,you lucky dog you:)

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Jon,

His statement was made in the context that it was not the Bak Mei of his practise! The two arts are different. As I said previoulsy I did not mention CLC to him. I was there for ZiMenQuan and YingMenQuan (Yue Jia) primarily it was only coincidence that I came accross the Emei Bai MeiQuan practitioner.

Chinese masters are very respectful to me. My own teacher appreciated highly my old frame ZhaoBao Taijiquan. He thought highly of the art as it beared resemblance to his wudang fist style, noting he also practises Wudang Gong Gun Baguazhang. (though he started learning it late in his life (at 40 unlike ZiMenQuan which was taughtby his father and grandfather) and he is nownearly 80.

Oh so whenare coming to China ? and where? It would be good to meet.

tnwingtsun,

Emei Mountain (Mandarin : Emei Shan / Cantonese : Ngor Mei San)

The Buddhist Daoist phenomenon has long been treated. The novel states Daoist the drawings of Bai Mei could be either. The pictures of Juk Fa Wan & Name are Buddhist. Bak Mei is an unprovablelegend as much as Chang San Feng is in Taijiquan…hard to say.

Lucky yes, but I do miss the food variety back home in Oz

:cool: Regards
WuChanLong

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My understandings : Emei, Omei, Ngor Mei all the same. I’m told that Bak Mei was buddhist, then with his travel (escape) he ended up in area of daoists and became daoist. This is where the internal aspects became integrated into the style. Generalized but you get the gist.
Is it possible to find out the lineage of this individual, or where (geographically) he learned his Bak Mei at?