Every single debate that you will see on this board is usually about efficiency vs effectiveness.
Effiency are synonyms but there is a slight difference in meaning:
EFFECTIVE stresses the actual production of or the power to produce an effect <an effective rebuttal>.
EFFICIENT suggests an acting or a potential for action or use in such a way as to avoid loss or waste of energy in effecting, producing, or functioning <an efficient small car>.
On one extreme…internal martial arts…yes..its very efficient but is it effective? How do you know?
On the other extreme MMA…yes its effective but is it efficient as it could be?
External is somewhere in the middle in this argument.
Like Siddharta Gautama I think the answer is somewhere in the middle…that is internal martial arts that you pressure test.
if the move is simple/straightforward, then it is “easy” to move the energy/qi around toward a general direction (Fa Jin)–
if the move is several submoves in a sequence temporally, then it is more difficult to shuffle your qi and jin around.
Tai Chi uses circular moves all over the joints and max the efficiency and efficacy or move Qi and Jin around “easier”.
and yet there is still a general direction toward (Fa Jin).
you contact, merge/stick and redirect/guide the opponent’s Jin with your little peng Jin/outward and then you Fa Jin with your own Jin.
the theory of the circle, wheel, ball etc etc.
Ba Gua called the circular outward Yuan Cheng Jin. your posture is circled or wrapped/ coiled, you suddenly uncoil outward.
Xing Yi has unwinding spiral jin around the wrist and forearm with similar ideas.
the standing posture practice is to get your structure right before and after Fa Jin.
[QUOTE=SPJ;735234]if the technique is worked out before with many generations of practitioners, do we have to pressure test it again to prove it works?
or just to prove that you suck at them?[/QUOTE]
Yes… because the the person doing the techniques is part and parcel of techniques themselves. A person who has never pressure techniques will not be very good at them because pressure testing is part of developing the ability to apply the techniques.
knifefighter,
if you really want to learn how to survive the streets, why not then just buy an AK47 and carry that along with you all the time. Probably the most effective way to self defence. Much better than MMA.
I promise you, MMA as most people see it, isnt all they think it is. If you keep training, and you’re fighting fit ALL the time, it would help, but reality is, someone will attack you when you feel at your worst. I dont think Rickson Gracy gets attacked in the street all that often. Predators select their targets, just as in nature.
I agree with fu pow. One need to seek the middle path. Whats more, one need to think why exactly we want to do martial arts. I have met some real bad ass people in my life (most of them were ex rebel soldiers whos killed people since before they have reached their teens) and very few of them have had any formal martial arts training. Most of those guys will take you on and be successful in their attack, without following structure.
Actually, its pointless arguing this to someone who lives in the luxuary of modern 1st world environment. The point is, we all have different reasons why we play the martial arts we do. If its all defence you want, I can go out my front door and probably walk half a mile in any direction and get an AK47 for less than $50.
Also,
I dont know about your country, but down here you are more likely to get attacked by someone who is physically fit and strong. Usually someone who sleeps in a tin shack, who does physical labor, and who comes from a ruthless culture where they have little compassion and regards life as a luxuary. Usually these guys would have been shot before, probably been stabbed a few times, and most certainly been beaten to a pulp on more than a dozen occations. Most of these people will kill their own mothers if she disrespects them, so how do you prepare for that? What MMA technique will help you in that situation?
One need to think long term. If you see MMA as a sport, fine. Its probably very realistic combat sport. Self defence, sure its realistic to a point. Take it for what it is.
CMA is an holistic approach to combat. Its all about sustainability (of your body and mind). If you see it in that context, over long period of time, I am almost certain that CMA gets a higher score on both of fu pow’s listings than MMA.
This past weekend I spend time again training with my shaolin teacher, Master Wong guan quan. He is in his 60’s and by far still the best fighting coach I have ever met. Not only that, he is fast as lightning, and strong as an ox. His mind is sharp and his responses are better than any 30 odd year old MMA person I have ever met. He also doesnt look a day over 35 either. When I look at this, I realise that there is more to martial arts than just becomming the best fighter (now).
Mohammed Ali was a good boxer when he was younger. Today, hes a wreck. Perhaps if concidered fu pows model, things would have been different.
[QUOTE=Eddie;735260]knifefighter,
if you really want to learn how to survive the streets, why not then just buy an AK47 and carry that along with you all the time. [/QUOTE]
In CA, we can’t do that.
If we could, I would.
I carry what I can carry here.
Whatever you carry should be trained in as realistic a manner as is possible.
[/QUOTE]Much better than MMA. [/QUOTE]
Not if your goal is to be able to defend yourself while unarmed.
I have met some real bad ass people in my life (most of them were ex rebel soldiers whos killed people since before they have reached their teens) and very few of them have had any formal martial arts training.
And with training, they would be even more bad ass.
If its all defence you want, I can go out my front door and probably walk half a mile in any direction and get an AK47 for less than $50.
For once, I’m not going to auto-flame Knifey. You do need to pressure test YOURSELF.
Its the person that needs testing more than anything else. What SPJ was getting at was that techniques that have been tested for millennia need not be treated like some new machine. That its usually the person not making the technique work. The techniques themselves are actually quite simple if you took a clear look at them. Punches, blocks, kicks, throws, footwork. Etc etc. Its usually a lack of coordination and understanding of context that people have the most trouble with.
[QUOTE=Eddie;735262]Also,
I dont know about your country, but down here you are more likely to get attacked by someone who is physically fit and strong. Usually someone who sleeps in a tin shack, who does physical labor, and who comes from a ruthless culture where they have little compassion and regards life as a luxuary. Usually these guys would have been shot before, probably been stabbed a few times, and most certainly been beaten to a pulp on more than a dozen occations. Most of these people will kill their own mothers if she disrespects them, so how do you prepare for that? What MMA technique will help you in that situation? [/QUOTE]
MMA would prepare you better than the way most CMA trains.
This past weekend I spend time again training with my shaolin teacher, Master Wong guan quan. He is in his 60’s and by far still the best fighting coach I have ever met. Not only that, he is fast as lightning, and strong as an ox. His mind is sharp and his responses are better than any 30 odd year old MMA person I have ever met. He also doesnt look a day over 35 either. When I look at this, I realise that there is more to martial arts than just becomming the best fighter (now).
Mohammed Ali was a good boxer when he was younger. Today, hes a wreck. Perhaps if concidered fu pows model, things would have been different.
Training at the highest end of any physical activity increases your risk of injury… that definitely goes with the territory.
However, there are many examples of full-contact fighters who are old and spry. Helio Gracie in his eighties would probably lay waste to just about any CMA “master” in his sixties.
Perhaps we look at combat training in two very different ways.
Tell me honestly, how long can you keep up with MMA training? Im sure not as long as you can doing ‘traditional’ CMA (or any MA for that matter).
Point is, your least likely to become a victom of violent crime when you are fighting fit (I said least likely). We buy retirement insurance and health insurance, maybe we should look at combat and self defence in the same way.
[QUOTE=SifuAbel;735265]You do need to pressure test YOURSELF. Its the person that needs testing more than anything else. What SPJ was getting at was that techniques that have been tested for millennia need not be treated like some new machine. That its usually the person not making the technique work. The techniques themselves are actually quite simple if you took a clear look at them. [/QUOTE]
Exactly…
For once in his posting lifetime, Able makes an intelligent point.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;735267]MMA would prepare you better than the way most CMA trains.
[/QUOTE]
Some CMAists don’t train like CMA, if that makes any sense. Whats Ironic is that CMA trained properly has most of the same traits as what some of the higher level MMAers train.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;735267]
However, there are many examples of full-contact fighters who are old and spry. Helio Gracie in his eighties would probably lay waste to just about any CMA “master” in his sixties.[/QUOTE]
Didnt helio gracie do some traditional jiujutsu or something too?
I’m sure for every ‘old’ MMA fighter that are still physically capable in their 60’s, there are hordes of … lets say ‘holistic’ fighters in their 60’s who can still pack out like people half their age.
Thats pretty much my arguement. Not sure if I convey myself correctly in this medium. Hope you understand what Im trying to get at.
[QUOTE=Eddie;735268]Tell me honestly, how long can you keep up with MMA training? Im sure not as long as you can doing ‘traditional’ CMA (or any MA for that matter). [/QUOTE]
Tell that to Helio’s 60 some years of training.
I’ve been training for 30 years.
BTW, it’s not like there are a ton of old CMA guys out there doing much training. Most old CMA “practitioners” don’t do much training… those who do train or teach spend much more standing around talking about techniques than actually doing them.
[QUOTE=SifuAbel;735271]Some CMAists don’t train like CMA, if that makes any sense. Whats Ironic is that CMA trained properly has most of the same traits as what some of the higher level MMAers train.[/QUOTE]
thanks for that. Exactly what I was trying to say.
[QUOTE=Eddie;735260]knifefighter,
if you really want to learn how to survive the streets, why not then just buy an AK47 and carry that along with you all the time. Probably the most effective way to self defence. Much better than MMA. [/quote]
Ok…so that would actually be the most effective…haha…but I’m thinking specifically in terms of hand to hand or weapon to weapon combat…what we think of when we think of martial arts.
I agree with Knifefighter that efficiency and effectiveness are interlinked,efficiency is not efficiency if it isn’t effective.
So the point is that maybe you start out working only on effectiveness (ie the external approach) or you start only working on efficiency which is the Internal Martial Arts approach. But at some point those paths need to meet or you end up with MMA Roid Beasts killing themselves in the gym (very inefficient, very effective) or Tofu Internal Chi Blasters who have never tested hands (very ineffective, maybe efficient but at what?.)
Those are the extremes and I seriously doubt anybody actually lives in those extremes…as we move toward the middle we reach the ideal. That is somebody that is very effective but in the most efficient manner possible, without breaking a sweat…and there is higher potential there as well because as you increase efficiency of movement, techniques that are effective become more so. As you use less energy you have more energy to use in an altercation. As the Taiji saying goes, “move 1000 lbs with 4 ounces.”
So you can’t move to greater efficiency until you know that you’re techniques are effective. That is the problem with traditional arts. We take it on FAITH that were are becoming efficient at something that is already effective. But if you never work to greater efficiency then you are wasteful. People that only spar, hit the gym hard and never work on structure or form, are forbidable but very wasteful in their movement and expenditure of energy. So you really can’t have one without the other and both approaches are needed.
If its all defence you want, I can go out my front door and probably walk half a mile in any direction and get an AK47 for less than $50.
That’s scary but you live in South Africa so it makes sense…keep your head down!
