Some styles utilize dynamic tension in their Chi Kung sets. Some just imagine tensing, some use varying degrees of tension, and some are quite forceful.
A quick question for those who practice it. To what degree do you tense? What are the benefits and drawbacks of each method?
Personally, I was taught to stop just at the point the hands begin to tremble.
[QUOTE=Tame The Tiger;1181586]Some styles utilize dynamic tension in their Chi Kung sets. Some just imagine tensing, some use varying degrees of tension, and some are quite forceful.
A quick question for those who practice it. To what degree do you tense? What are the benefits and drawbacks of each method?
Personally, I was taught to stop just at the point the hands begin to tremble.[/QUOTE]
Here is the issue with dynamic tension ( or isometric tension to a degree) and that is that there is no way to KNOW what percentage of tension you are using.
Either you do full tension ( whatever that may be to you) or you don’t.
There is no way to quanitfy the % of tension you are using.
In isometric tension (where you hold and tense the muscle in place) you can use a weight to set the % of tension, but quite honestly that kind of negates the advantages of isometric training which should, IMO, be all out (100%).
With iso-kinetic tension ( Tension of the muscles through a range of motion) you don’t have that option unless you use a very expensive machine.
What most do is just tense their muscles while doing a move.
The issue is, like I stated before, unless you tense 100% ( or as close to it as possible) all you are doing is tensing LESS than 100% but there is no way to knwo HOW much less.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1181614]Here is the issue with dynamic tension ( or isometric tension to a degree) and that is that there is no way to KNOW what percentage of tension you are using.
Either you do full tension ( whatever that may be to you) or you don’t.
There is no way to quanitfy the % of tension you are using.
…
[/QUOTE]
Don’t disagree that there is no easy way to quantify how much tension you are using. However, the implication here is that unless you quantify how much tension there is, it has no effect. I disagree with this premise. Using a relative scale, it’s easy to use “more” or “less” tension even if not easy to quantify. Aren’t you able to say that running “faster” is more difficult than running “slower” over a given distance, even if you don’t know exactly how many mph you’re running?
[QUOTE=Tame The Tiger;1181586]Some styles utilize dynamic tension in their Chi Kung sets. Some just imagine tensing, some use varying degrees of tension, and some are quite forceful.
A quick question for those who practice it. To what degree do you tense? What are the benefits and drawbacks of each method?
Personally, I was taught to stop just at the point the hands begin to tremble.[/QUOTE]
Depending upon the method I tend to think of tension in different ways. When practicing the I Chin Ching there are some exercises where I build up tension on each successive exhale. There are others where I cramp or tense the muscle group as hard as I can on each exhale.
For an iron body exercise like San Njie (San Chin) I tense to the max throughout the entire form until the release at the end. This is extremely difficult. My understanding is that this exercise not only involves muscle exhaustion but also forces chi away from the external muscles while tensed. Then, during the release, the chi quickly flows back to the extremities.
Don’t disagree that there is no easy way to quantify how much tension you are using. However, the implication here is that unless you quantify how much tension there is, it has no effect. I disagree with this premise. Using a relative scale, it’s easy to use “more” or “less” tension even if not easy to quantify. Aren’t you able to say that running “faster” is more difficult than running “slower” over a given distance, even if you don’t know exactly how many mph you’re running?
Yes, of course and as with all things, it depends on what you are trying to develop.
Studies done have shown that one only gets strength results from dynamic tension when using MAX tension.
Of course one may not be doing dynamic tension to build strength, but if one is NOT doing that, why are you doing it?
By strength I mean the VAIROUS types of strength of course, which includes muscular endurance and so forth.
In other words, to use your running analogy:
One does NOT develop speed by going slow and one does not develop endurance but NOT going further.
Dynamic Tension is not necessarily used for strength development. It is also very good for learning muscle control, enervation of the muscles.
The more you do, the greater the tension you will eventually be able to manifest.
When starting it is best not to tense your muscles too much or you will cramp them. As with any other form of exercise, start easy and work up to greater tension as your muscle control and conditioning improves.
[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;1181636]Dynamic Tension is not necessarily used for strength development. It is also very good for learning muscle control, enervation of the muscles.
The more you do, the greater the tension you will eventually be able to manifest.
When starting it is best not to tense your muscles too much or you will cramp them. As with any other form of exercise, start easy and work up to greater tension as your muscle control and conditioning improves.[/QUOTE]
If you start going all “common sense” and “good advice” on Us, your reputation will be shot !
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1181638]If you start going all “common sense” and “good advice” on Us, your reputation will be shot ![/QUOTE]
Hey! Everyone is entitled to an off day from time to time!
I am tired…the sun got in my eyes…I am loopy from pain medication…someone slipped something narcotic-like into my drink…I was drunk…I fell and hit my head and I think I have a concussion…someone else hacked into my account…I just caught 1,000 monkeys typing randomly on my keyboard…I was on steroids during my women’s Olympic swimming finals in my younger days and suffered a hormonal imbalance that caused brain damage…:eek:
[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;1181642]Hey! Everyone is entitled to an off day from time to time!
I am tired…the sun got in my eyes…I am loopy from pain medication…someone slipped something narcotic-like into my drink…I was drunk…I fell and hit my head and I think I have a concussion…[/QUOTE]
Yep it’s just that most people get into this on the weekend…not on a Wednesday 
Thanks for the responses.
I should have made it clearer that I was talking specifically about Chi Kung exercises for health.
I agree that it’s difficult to quantify the specific degree of tension used. It’s not hard though to feel a general progression along the following lines: a little bit of tension, a bit more, quite a bit more, my hands are trembling, I can no longer breathe soft and smooth, my hands are trembling badly and I’m giving it everything.
Martial Chi Kung forms like Southern Mantis Sarm Bo Jin are often (but not always) played at maximum tension. The health sets however are almost universally played with total relaxation (or sung, if you prefer).
My question stems from the fact that I was taught to use just enough to make the hands begin to tremble, which on the above progression is past half way. This level (whatever the precise amount) rises as you practice and certainly increases muscular development, though not necessarily maximum capacity.
There are health benefits to muscular development such as increased bone density. Conversely, it may be detrimental to strain too hard because of he potential risk of high blood pressure. It’s all about balance…
The old timers never had the benefits of machines to measure their efforts and find the right balance but they developed markers instead such as the trembling of the hands to guide them.
Does anyone know any other markers?
@ Tame:
I’m a bit confused as to which type of exercise you’re asking about. You mention Chi Kung exercises for health but then state those exercises are done in a state of relaxation. You then talk and ask about markers for tension. 
Thanks for the Sarm Bo Jin post that was interesting. I have never seen that form before but found a quick vid here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lmTLn_lcns
An additional “marker” I’ve heard of is related to the move in the middle of Sarm Bo Jin where you “surge” forward. (Look at the video beginning at 0:28 s). The concept here is to use the root of your spine to drive forward. If not done correctly, somebody can simply put one hand on your chest and prevent you from moving forward. This is the “marker” as I understand it.
My understanding is the correct amount of tension for this and other Wai Dan sets is the maximum tension that still allows you to breathe fully to dan tian.
It is a bit confusing…
But my point is just that. Most Chi Kung sets for health are done in a relaxed manner. But some schools introduce tension into them once a student reaches a higher level.
When I say tension I don’t mean stiff - the movements must be fluid - so much so that they appear completely relaxed, even when they’re not.
[QUOTE=Tame The Tiger;1181898]It is a bit confusing…
But my point is just that. Most Chi Kung sets for health are done in a relaxed manner. But some schools introduce tension into them once a student reaches a higher level.
When I say tension I don’t mean stiff - the movements must be fluid - so much so that they appear completely relaxed, even when they’re not.[/QUOTE]
Only part of the picture really.
Are you saying that being strong is NOT healthy? and doing dynamic tension to build strength is not healthy?
Of course not.
Correct. I’m not saying that.
It’s relevant though that dynamic tension exercises cause a spike in blood pressure. The more forceful the tension, the higher the spike.
Breath holding, prevalent in some schools, elevates BP further.
If you have chronically high BP and perform strenuous tension exercises you’re significantly increasing your risk of an aneurism, stroke, etc.
Given that chronically high BP is rife in western society, forceful dynamic tension is not a healthy option for many.
On the other hand, if you don’t have high BP such exercises help to keep it that way.
So there are advantages and disadvantages to dynamic tension as a health exercise.
Moderate tension may provide most of the benefits with the fewest risks and therefore achieve the “balance” that I mentioned in an earlier post.
hard qigong is martial qigong. its for young healthy men. it will increase your blood pressure. you balance that out by doing “lowering fire” exercises and doing relaxed soft qigong.
From what I’ve learned about Shaolin Qi Gong, tension is counterproductive to the goal of Qi Gong at any level, martial or health orientated.
Greetings,
I have been involved in some discipline that involves tension. Unfortunately A LOT of the various styles have lost the “what” when it comes to such disciplines. What are you supposed to be doing? You are not simply tensing your muscles tensing muscles. You are trying to condense something. You are supposed to be condensing the chi that you have built up. The Okinawan practitioners do this, though via muscular means. They train heavy apparatus work and then condense those gains with their Sanchin practice.
mickey
Interesting posts, guys.
The traditional Chinese concept of chi isn’t so much that tension stops its development but that it impedes its flow. Not quite the same thing.
The concept behind Wai Dan Chi kung sets is that you use tension to build up chi in the extremities of the limb and when you relax it flows back through the meridians (clearing them) and to the body.
These exercises are helped on a mental level by concentrating on the limbs (say the points on the palm or soles of the feet) which increase the effect. This is part of the “what” I guess.
[QUOTE=Tame The Tiger;1183393]Interesting posts, guys.
The traditional Chinese concept of chi isn’t so much that tension stops its development but that it impedes its flow. Not quite the same thing.
The concept behind Wai Dan Chi kung sets is that you use tension to build up chi in the extremities of the limb and when you relax it flows back through the meridians (clearing them) and to the body.
These exercises are helped on a mental level by concentrating on the limbs (say the points on the palm or soles of the feet) which increase the effect. This is part of the “what” I guess.[/QUOTE]
Well said. This is the theory of Wai Dan as I understand it as well.
What you say about focusing on the limbs is also consistent with “let the Yi lead the qi”
Greetings,
It does not stop at the limbs, That is incredibly rudimentary. It builds back up into the body. Think of you hands and feet as the bottom of a cup and your torso the mouth of the cup. And this is just a conceptual beginning. There are some major things that the “classics” do not cover. You have to experience it. In terms of chi returning to the body, I have found the exact opposite to be true. Otherwise, these practices would be a complete waste of time.
mickey
[QUOTE=Tame The Tiger;1181586]Some styles utilize dynamic tension in their Chi Kung sets. Some just imagine tensing, some use varying degrees of tension, and some are quite forceful.
A quick question for those who practice it. To what degree do you tense? What are the benefits and drawbacks of each method?
Personally, I was taught to stop just at the point the hands begin to tremble.[/QUOTE]
Dynamic Tension is the name I gave to my first B-Boy(that’s breakdance for you commercial victims) crew. At the time I thought the name was brilliant, and I still like it. You can still find DTC pieces and tags all throughout 4 major American and Canadian cities.
As for DT as a strengthening concept, I know for a fact it works.