BTL’s making some sense there. Although I have no doubt that observing animals has inspired people to adapt the animal movements and strategies for their own use, I don’t see any way around the fact that most of these critters are too unlike us to leave much similarity in the final result of those adaptations.
CSN,
That´s what I´m still thinking about.
How much is lost in the “translation”.
Nothing worth saving, I’d bet.
It’s nearly a universal thing. Except for perhaps the middle East, you can find ‘animal based’ traditions all over, including Europe [Scandinavia being the most famous for the ‘berserk’ or ‘bear-skinned’]. The systems should be unsurprising. That they are useful is just better.
There’s two ways to look at it: copy the moves [praying mantis seems to have developed that way] or copy the spirit [like the berserker above, or hsingyi] then both combined. You find it in animist religions, shamanism, folk dances, martial traditions, war dances, blah blah. It goes back to the Neolithic cave days in France. Thousands of years of evolution at your disposal. Use it.
The martial traditions that we study tended to originate in Mountainous or Forested regions- there’s lots of critters they saw every day and they respected their abilities. No big whoop. No, I am not verklempt. Oy!
NOT A RELIGIOUS THREAD??? Gosh, golly, gee wiz. After all the Bush bashing and other OT threads (ad nauseam), I thought for sure we could get some ol’ time religion up in here.
I’ll be brief: Jesus is cool, Satan sucks the big one. 
“Sure those animals can be all effective and even graceful in terms of backing themselves up,but that´s what they have perfectly adapted to do.Is it logical to conclude that since a tiger as an example (or even a purely mythological dragon) is strong for it´s needs,we should imitate it (with great modification of course) ? Not to even mention an insect.
Well?”
When you want T’ai Chi Ch’uan one looks not to the neighborhood recreation center~ but to The Chen Village in China. You want to be fierce, you look to a tiger. You want to be strong, you look to the being which lifts upwards of hundreds of times it own body weight. This seems logical.
Re: Re: Re: Elephant
Originally posted by Serpent
[B]
That’s something of a misconception. Sure, good technique will give you an advantage, but to be really good at kung fu you have to be fit and strong and agile. That’s why it’s called kung fu - it means hard work. [/B]
Yes I agree, but what I was aiming for was those 60 year old internalists, or forget about internalist, those 60 year old CMA masters who still train and teach, they are scrawny, shriveled, and definitely not strong or quick as a heavyweight Sanda champion. Yet they are able to hold their grounds and beat up these amateurs (champions) fairly quick. Well, at least so the stories say. But anyway, that’s what I meant that there are styles which will provide you with these tools to improve rather than just being inherent to being strong and quick.
“When you want T’ai Chi Ch’uan one looks not to the neighborhood recreation center~ but to The Chen Village in China. You want to be fierce, you look to a tiger. You want to be strong, you look to the being which lifts upwards of hundreds of times it own body weight. This seems logical.”
I´m not sure if I understand.
Looking at a tiger to be fierce? Can we lift upwards such weight (in comparative terms)?
CSN,
Are you saying they´re useles then?
I still cannot say.
No, I’m saying that whatever masters took from the animals is the good stuff for humans. What they left isn’t going benefit us at all. I trust that these guys were pretty pragmatic.
Just wondering…
http://www.oaklandzoo.org/atoz/azchimp.html
“species: troglodyte”
FC, correct me if I am wrong but doesn’t troglodyte mean 'cave liver" ??? my greek ain’t what it used to be.
CSN, I think you have it, the old masters took what was useful to humans, be it intent or physical aptitude or what have you. Methinks mebbe that the animal bit may gone the way of tai chi in the western world: us round-eyes making more of it than it is and embellishing the reality quite a bit.
I’ll say it again: metaphor.
Oso,
Your greek is likely to be better than mine.
See;
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=troglodyte
Metaphor,metaphor…gotta get familiar with that.
U don’t know the word metaphor?!
That strikes me as odd, when it comes from you.
the only Greek I know came from what bit of science terminology I picked up from 4 years of caving. but most of it was greek and my def for troglodyte was ‘1a’ on the page so I feel ok about that.
ya, learn the lesson, apply it to yourself, move on.
‘Animal Style Hippies’ are as bad as ‘tai chi hippies’
Underwater big-ass catfish grappling style
Must be seen to be believed!
that was sweeeet !!
considering that a lot of prime catfish water is also prime water moccasin territory you will not find me doing that crap.
but props to them.
Rent the DVD if you can find it. It’s totally nuts. And yeah, the water moccassin issue is brought up. They show some of the stripey b@stards comin’ close to the noodlers.
edit - Plus, now you know what Master Killer does when he’s not surfing the KFM forums!
“I´m not sure if I understand.
Looking at a tiger to be fierce? Can we lift upwards such weight (in comparative terms)?”
When you want an education you try to attend the best schools for what you want to study. Not many creatures seek tigers to mess with them. If I want to be feared/respected/not messed with I might look to tigers who are not messed with. I might presume that they are good fighters for the same reason, they are not messed with (because the other animals know from experience that if you face a tiger you do not survive often. Animal nature is survival. Animals that want to stay alive leave tigers alone.
Can we study something that can lift hundreds of times it’s weight and with understanding lift hundreds of times our weight? Possiblly not. Part of their success might be considered to be their design. But it might be mechanics. And if we can understand the mechanics of their efficiency we might be able to apply them to not lift hundreds of times our own body weight, but to lift more weight than if we do not use the same mechanics as do insects.
I was thinking of a slightly amusing thought experiment, esp. for the hsingyi ppl, but anyone can play. 
WRT the berserker example I brought up previously, if I handed you a selection of Viking weapons, which animal style would you use for each? OTOH, if you don’t use animal styles, how would you use them?
The weapons are:
Double handed battleaxe [weighted like a sledgehammer]
Longsword
Single handed warhammer
Throwing axe
Dagger, 1 foot long
Spiked shield
I’m wondering if there will not be substantial agreement in usage. No, I will not give you hallucinogenic shrooms to go with them…
“Like,sure they have to be adapted to humans,but how much can you get out of it with a human physique?”
Not actual, But communicates animal relation to Human physique: Animal to Human= paw/palm heel; toes/palm close to fingers; claws/fingers; joint at body and front limb/shoulder; joint at body and hind limb/hip; front limb second joint from body/elbow;hind (rear) limb second joint from body/knee…
insect claw/hand to forearm; elephant trunk/whole arm movement with fist; elephant tusk/uppercut; elephant leg workings/strong sweeping angled or sideways kick (strong step or stance)…
“As for my insight,
I still cannot honestly say that to observe those animals would necessary,in terms of logic,bring one to a conclusion of their importance for man. But I´m not dissing it,just curious.”
When teams/sports players want to feel more aggressive they might growl. It seems dogs might be said to growl when about to attack or willing to defend strongly. Humans have speech. They do not need animal sounds to convey thoughts. However, some animal sounds seem to have been adopted to increase human performance at key moments. Guerilla units, covert units from native American Indians to I No_Know; it has been my understanding that such people have used bird sounds to communicate when hunting or operating in forests or perhaps the jungle.
“…to observe those animals…to a conclusion of their importance for man…”
"I think that’s my point as well. WHY did it strike those old dudes that it WAS important for them to mimic/draw allusions/create metaphors and/or allegory for fighting methods based on animals?
for me at least the proof is in the pudding so to speak but I’m still curious about the origin."
Humans survived by running and hiding. Children in every culture enjoy these intrinsic Human survival skills. Fighting seems an adaptation by observation of what did the best killing or was the best defending or was the most threatening. It would make sense to mimic those. Even if Humans made spears or knives they seemed to hunt in groups. This suggests that even with weapons animals were more efficient. And a single creature was more than a single armed (weapon carrying Human) could usually beat. So if as was mentioned that Humans made spears an knives. And they also mimiced animals. It took more than having a single powerful tool to survive against a being with greater physical traits than Humans. The only source to learn the superior to Human Animalness physical and mental was to study the Masters. Mimicry is a beginning form of study.
“Although I have no doubt that observing animals has inspired people to adapt the animal movements and strategies for their own use, I don’t see any way around the fact that most of these critters are too unlike us to leave much similarity in the final result of those adaptations.”
Refer to the earlier part of this post.
Poke at a cat it paws at your finger in Hung gar style towards centerline. Fingers closed is I do not want to hurt you but stop. Fingers spread and bent is claws. As felines house cat or tiger, the hand position can change to match intent.
We are as snakes at our ribcage. Kangaroos and gorillas use their four limbs on the ground yet can sometimes be seen to be on the hind limbs. Humans are not as isolated in environment as these animals. And have found primary hindleg support most universally beneficial.
“…to observe those animals…to a conclusion of their importance for man…”
Humans are not birds, yet we fly (airplanes). Humans are not flying squirrels yet we glide (parachutes, gliders). Humans are not birds flying into the wind yet we soar (parasailing). Humans are not on their own faster than cheetahs. Yet we can go faster than seventy-five miles per hour. Humans are not snails nor hermit crabs yet we travel in shells for protection (cars, tanks). Humans are not whales yet we can dive hundreds of feet (submarines). Humans are not fish yet we can breathe underwater (weighted animal skins, SCUBA). Humans are not beavers yet we build dams. Humans are not bears yet we can withstand extended exposure to cold desert cold (coats, clothes thremal underwear, socks, boots, earmuffs, scarves, goggles, hats, hood, parka, gloves, mitts…). Humans are not pea****s yet male Humans make dramatic displays to gain the favor of a female Human…
What some call spirit, others might understand as attitude. As one thinks so one is~ Think you are a failure you are more likely to fail. Think, “I’m a fish” you might swim better or increase your will to do what you think of fish (fish swim). It’s a mental enhancer to focus one on the task at hand.