so…
will we see a school return to teaching WL’s three forms as the first three forms in the system?
Carly…
No,
They are too advanced.
Praying Mantis wasn’t intended to be an entry-level martial art. That’s why Lo Kwang Yu invented Sub Sa Lo for the Chin Wu. PM didn’t have any basic forms to teach beginners.
didn’t chin wu beginners
already have a LOT of forms before they got to study mantis?
The last thing they needed was one more.
Sub Sa Lo exists, so that should answer your question.
yes
What do sifus do to avoid teaching applicatiosn and sparring?
They teach another form!
hmmmmmm
TAINAN MANTIS…
What makes you think that Wang Rong Sheng added “Whipe Ape Steals the Peach” or "Mantis Steals the Peach? You referred to "Mantis Steals the Peach for HK 7* as if HK 7* does not contain the set “Whipe Ape steals the Peach” in their cirriculum???
MIGHTY B…
“I do agree that there is little pure praying mantis..”
Well i think we all would agree, mantis has evolved as it should if it is going to be effective on the streets, hand to hand. Things thta stay the same in any arena without change or evolving eventually become extinct.
So i dont know if pure with reference to mantis in this way is a good thing or bad thing in the way it was referenced.
Hong Kong Mantis practictioners were taught and still teach CH forms, but they are told that they are CH forms and are not told that they are mantis so it in no way WATERS down HK 7* mantis or make it less pure. They are used as a foundation to build basics and give the student a foundation.
Re: didn’t chin wu beginners
Originally posted by carly
already have a LOT of forms before they got to study mantis?
The last thing they needed was one more.
Mantis was a system to learn after you have years of other CMA’s under your belt…an add-on to what already existed.
That is the way many arts emerge, which is why we have a listing of where the techniques of mantis came from…Someone had to know how to use them before they could combine them into a system, …Yes?
Anyway,..back to history!
(This has been a great dicussion BTW!)
Best Wishes,
~BTL
well it’s a fascinating discovery
that sifu Profatilov has made.
Kicking Mantis,
What are CH forms?
–
What I meant by pure mantis is that there aren’t a lot of forms (beginner through intermediate) that Sifu would say are just mantis. It’s all mantis in the advanced though. I think this is more of a Chin Wu thing and doesn’t mean that HK 7* is less mantis or anything. Heck, I don’t know much about other styles of mantis, I just enjoy what I study.
And,
Not only does HK 7* have “White ape steals the Peach”, it also has “White ape exits the Cave”. Two fun and fine forms in my opinion.
sorry it was suppose to be CW Chin-Woo
Kicking Mantis,
About White Ape Steals the Peach…
A thread called 7 STAR: EXITS CAVE… which had its final post 9/13/02 goes into more detail on this question.
I made some discoveries which I posted on 7/13/02 on that thread.
Although I think I may have been misunderstood, so read that and see if it answers your questions.
A question for you.
What are the Ching Wu forms in the HK 7*?
Mighty B
3 Essentials is a translation of Zhai Yao.
There are 7 in total, but in HK only 3. Some schools combine the 6th and 7th into one form.
At one time Meihua Lu was listed as the 7th essential.
PM can be taught to beginners.
My shr ye, Ran Hsingfu, who I was lucky enough to meet and talk to before he met his heavenly reward, taught the horse stance to beginners.
Hard to imagine these days. Sign up for class and the teacher tells you to squat for an hour while he watches TV(or whatever).
Carly,
Ilya Profatilov teaches according to the tradition that was passed to him from Song Zide’s grandson.
According to his research it is as traditional as it gets.
I visited him last year and he taught me 8 Elbows first.
For a more complete version of his quote visit Mantis108’s website/forum.
BTW, What kind of MA do you study?
Could you put up the URL or a link to Mantis 108’s website?
Thanks,
B
the tai chi praying mantis website
Mantis 108’s site:
This is a great website:
+
http://forums.delphiforums.com/Taijimantis/messages
tainan
I’ve studied mantis.
Sifu Profatilov seems like an unusual and extremely knowledgeable sifu - you’re very privileged to have studied with him.
He taught 8 elbows first? I like that!
Tainan Mantis,
I did go back to the thread that was started and initiated by ursa major in july 2002.
I guess he asked some very interesting questions about the white ape, praying mantis and black tiger exits the cave and steals the peach forms.
I have never heard of the black tiger steals the peach or exits the cave. I know they don’t exist in the HK 7* lineage that I am currently studying.
I think that you and Mantis101 contributed a great deal to that thread, some very interesting information was shared . I think it was one of the best threads I have read on here.
Although, still didnt answer my question completly. You said that
Wang Rong Sheng probably created/added White Ape/Gibbon Steals the Peach, I now know why you may/can assume that
You said that “The famous 7* master of PRC, Li Zhanyuan, has a form called White Ape Steals Peach. Huang Hanhsun, famous master of HK 7* has a form called Praying Mantis Steals Peach. Undoubtedly passed on to him by Luo Guangyu. These forms are the same. As far as the name is conerned.”
Yes i did misunderstand you.
However,
HK 7* Mantis does have White Gibbon Exits the Cave and white Gibbon Steals the Peach as well as Praying Mantis Steals the Peach and Exist the Cave.
logically, I too must assume that some of these were more recent innovations, I have no manuscripts dating back to the 1800’s but its obvious.
However, those masters that later added, or created these sets to their cirriculum, did so for a reason, and in doing so has made the systems evolve and change and by doing so is the reason why many of us are thinking about those inovations today.
If you play these sets, you can tell there is a whole different feel, flow and method in each of these sets. especially between the white ape sets and the praying mantis sets as they apply to exiting and stealing. Therefore, we must say to ourselves, what were the creators motives and intentions with adding or inventing these sets.
I have been told/instructed that one really doesn’t get a feel of the core of 7* until after they have learned Praying Mantis Steals the Peach.
Tainan,
On this Thread, on 7/30/2002, you said
"HK 7*
BYTT was renamed Praying Mantis Steals the Peach, All those other forms mentioned by ursa major are most likely made up by Luo Gang Yu or adaptions of forms he learned elsewhere. they are not found in old lists PRC 7* PM forms. "
So how can we account for some lineages of HK 7* mantis schools having both White Ape Steals the Peach and Praying Mantis Steals the Peach, if White Gibbon/Ape was renamed Praying Mantis Steals the Peach?
but i do agree that they somewhere they are adaptions, additions or creations at some point down the lineages.
You asked “What are the Ching Wu forms in the HK 7*?”
These sets were sets that were taught at Chin Wu, I wouldn’t necesarily say they are Chin Wu forms. I am sure they were sets of other systems thatwere brought in to the Chin Wu cirriculum.As the story was told to me, these sets were chosen to specifically give students the fundamentals of martial arts training and then up on their completion they were taught a specific style. Similiar to the cirriculum of that of universities. You must take your basic core classes, major requirements and electives.
A few examples of these would be Gung Lik or Gong Lik, Jeet Kuen, Tam Tui Lines 10 or 12. Sheperd Taming the Sheep Staff, * diagram broadsword, and etc.,
Acording to the story that I was told this is why LGY developed the 14 roads, when he went to the cH schools to teach, he saw the students doing the tam tui lines and deceloped 14 roads in order to compete with the tam tui lines and a way to develop basics for the mantis students. not sure about that one though
Originally posted by KickingMantis
[B]…I did go back to the thread that was started and initiated by ursa major in july 2002.
I guess he asked some very interesting questions about the white ape, praying mantis and black tiger exits the cave and steals the peach forms.
I have never heard of the black tiger steals the peach or exits the cave. I know they don’t exist in the HK 7* lineage that I am currently studying…
BYTT was renamed Praying Mantis Steals the Peach, All those other forms mentioned by ursa major are most likely made up by Luo Gang Yu or adaptions of forms he learned elsewhere. they are not found in old lists PRC 7* PM forms. "…
[/B]
Hello KickingMantis,
FYI: to date I have not been able to find any support for the two forms “Black Tiger Steps from Cave” and “Black Tiger Steals the Peach” in any PM curriculum – other than that from which I was taught. As-far-as-I-know the trail ends there hence I do not consider these two forms to be classical PM.
regards,
UM.
.
Thank You
Thanks a lot for the FYI
Would you be willing to tell us of what lineage you learned these sets?
Compared to The White Gibbon Exits/Steal Sets and the Praying Mantis Exits/Steals sets do they (Blk Tiger) flow or are played simliar?
Have you asked your teacher about these sets and what is his explanation or reasoning for his line haveing them ?
Re: Thank You
Originally posted by KickingMantis
[B]Thanks a lot for the FYI
Would you be willing to tell us of what lineage you learned these sets?
Compared to The White Gibbon Exits/Steal Sets and the Praying Mantis Exits/Steals sets do they (Blk Tiger) flow or are played simliar?
Have you asked your teacher about these sets and what is his explanation or reasoning for his line haveing them ? [/B]
Hello KickingMantis,
At this point in time I prefer not to discuss the lineage through which I learned these sets.
The Black Tiger forms contain some very interesting techniques that are not repeated or shared in either PM or Monkey Steals/Exits. I am not sure where this ‘not shared’ stuff comes from I always assumed the Black Tiger system ? Anyway, they play similarily to Monkey and PM and about 70% of each form is recodnizable as 7 Star material (which is why I always assumed it was original 7 Star). IMO the most notable aspect of these forms is the ease through which they combine advancing steps with with upper and lower body techniques – they have a very unique motion to them. For comparisons sake, IMO they are not as technical as the Monkey forms nor are they filled with rich traditional material as the PM forms are.
I asked about these forms once but did not receive any noteworthy answers other than “Grand Master picked them up during a sabbatical overseas…”. There you have it.
regards,
UM.
gibbon?
Kicking Mantis,
It seems as though the original White Ape Steals the Peach was renamed Mantis…
and then a NEW White Ape Steals the … was added.
Interesting that these forms look like Shanhsi Tongbei.
Modern Chinese dictionaries call Gibbon Changbi Yuan.
All I can find for Bai yuan is white ape. I suspect it is a specific breed of animal, but can’t find any proof.
You know the fable/story that it is actaully someone’s name?
I think Ursa Major’s Black Tiger Exits the Cave, if he has this form, is different than the one I refer.
The one I refer is exactly the same as Meihua Shou/ Plum Flower Hands, but missing some moves at the end.