Fire Hawk
I’m positive you’ll fit right in at the VTM!!!
Don’t let that bada$$ Chango scare you!!!
P.S. Chango my man don’t worry about flame wars here…you can’t even f.a.r.t. too loud without getting Edited,Deleted or Banned!!!
(,)
&
RH - Hawkins Cheung appears in Complete Wing Chun more than some of his classmates for the same reason my sifu, Ngo Lui-Kay appears more than some of his classmates in the YKS section - availability. Due to our connections with them, it was easier to discuss the project, earn their support, and work out the photos. No rocket science there. If someone has publication quality pictures of Moy or Kan sifu plying their trade, can get permission to use them, and is kind enough to send them my way, I’ll certainly (and would be honored to) use them when/if we put out an update.
Chango - I understand what you’re saying but if you look back at the history of Firehawk’s posts, he’s asked all sorts of questions from “is Cheung Bo WC connected to Gulao?” (which I answered"no" to, btw 8) ) to “is there Bak Mei in Nanyang WC”, to several others along similar tangents, and you didn’t scold him about any of those, right? They didn’t disrespect Cheung Bo or Leung Jan or Cho On, the provided opportunities for those who know their legacies to discuss them and share them. And hey, maybe a newcomers excitement will even see something that jaded old veterans hadn’t considered, so in a sense is worth considering and maybe even encouraging. I also respect TWC, HFY, and every branch, sub-branch, interpretation, etc. of WCK, but not in a religious way where’s its blasphemy or heresy to question them. It’s human nature to investigate. People question whether Shakespeare really wrote all his plays from scratch, whether Oswald acted alone, what happened to the dinosaurs, whether you can travel faster than light, etc. And as we question, we slowly pull our way along the path of knowledge (acknowledging a few bumps along the way 8)
(and I daresay, if people embraced questions and were up front and engaging, there wouldn’t be such anti-anything movements - those are usually born out of silence leading to ignorance.)
Rgds,
RR
point missed !
RR,
I think you missed my point here. I did read firehawks post history. I choose not to handle things the same way you do. I think what you don’t see is that the flow of things went in as if to ask a group of people a question about a particular person with that person setting right there at the table. So that is why I asked him to just direct his question to the VTM directly. This stops the waste of time about how things have been asked. Sort of like this conversation. In the future he will direct his questions directly to the party that he has the question about. That makes for more effiecent conversation. So it is not a religious approach just one to help someone understand a better way to approach such dialog. with out offending those that are more sensitive. I find it strange explaining this to you. I think you know how it is when dealing with more then one lineage. Firehawk has e-mailed me and things are all forgotten there isn’t a problem just a misunderstanding. Everything is worked out and we look forward to having him at the VTM!
Hi Chango,
I didn’t miss the point, I just think a broader point (pun intended) is being missed. If you ask any question to a single party behind closed doors, you will get (or not) a single answer. If he asks the VTM, he will only get the VTMs answer. By asking here, who knows what else he might get? Maybe a senior William Cheung student from the past will read it and it will spark something? Maybe a person who knew Gee sifu in HK or China, or his sifu, sihing, etc. or one of their students could stumble across it (I get messages all the time from Heshan, Foshan, Guangzhou, HK, etc.) and clear some things up?
The VTM, while they do a lot of work, is certainly not the final answer, just one voice among many, and I’m sure we all enjoy the richness and benefits of multiple opinions and different sources of information.
(And you still should have stuck up for Cheung Bo and Leung Jan on the previous question if you felt that strongly about it 8P )
Anyway, I think we agree in large part, just have different perspectives and experiences in the small.
Rgds,
RR
Anerlich
–are you trying to grab the whipster’s title of # 1 PITA on this forum?
WH likes Salsa, and you do Cha Cha Mumbo!!!
RR
–No rocket science there.
You don’t like going behind anyone’s back. You prefer to be aboveboard. Acting in your interests needn’t be mercenary. But be careful about appearing callous. Carefully gauge the situation as it unfolds - There’re more than one tiger on this mountain.
sunkuen-flame wars/ Not if you can chew gum at the same time.
A chi blast and chewing gum can be coordinated.
RH: Do you cha cha during donuts or wc or both or neither.
Are you also whipping hand? During cha cha, salsa, neither or both?
Yuanfen
Your ambition knows no limits, but you can’t handle full swing - You need to practice more and of course that’s for your own good!!!
Time and place for everything.
Rene,
I went back to reread this thread to see where I was not clear. Maybe I can be better understood by giving you a prime example. I will do the same here. In your post you list all of the socalled “rumors” well let me ask you this question in public which one do you think is true?
<snip>1 Yip Man learned Hung Fa Yi while hiding from the Yunnan army (after his altercation with the armed soldier in Foshan) in Guangzhou before going to HK and only taught it to William Cheung
2 William Cheung went to China before going to Australia and learned HFY from Garrett Gee’s sifu or sihing
3 Combination of above (Yip learned some HFY and then arranged for Cheung to go back and learn more)
4 Gee sifu learned some WCK on the mainland then found Cheung’s material, thought it really was more traditional, and engineered HFY
5 Gee sifu was a private student of William Cheung’s in San Fran (where Cheung sifu always arranged for some time to be spent during his visits to the US) for many years.
these are your words I just took the liberty to number them for you. If you do not choose one then please explain to this public forum your theory as to where TWC came from. If not from where Sibak Guang says?!! What is your theory on HFY and it’s origin as well?!
(LOL!) no spin or fence riding please just what you think and why!!! stand by your words even if you offend! is this the proper time or place for this Rene?
Here is another example.
You having been a person that has done alot of research and you have a good relationship with many wing chun families. But how are you viewed by your own extended kung fu family in China? What do they think about you? How do they feel about you speaking for them?
Now knowing that these questions can do no good on a public forum is this something I should be asking here? should I be asking these questions if I know the answers? should I be asking these question if I have your personal E-mail and I can get the answers myself. Of course these are not the same situations but this is just a way to bring it into perspective. I know that you have in the past have tried hard to define what is Chinese tradition and what is not in the martial art world. But I think this one falls under just basic proper time and proper place. I will give you the last word. I find it very hard to balance all of this chat and training time. I hope you see my point. I do however understand what you are saying. I think you miss what I’m tryng to point out and how it applies here.
LOL don’t break wind at a funeral and ask at the top of your voice “who died in here?”
Don’t go to a man’s wedding asking him if he seen the rack on the brides maids.
Don’t ask “who’s buying the beer” at a AA meeting!
don’t ask a man’s wife why she does not keep in shape like his ex girl friends.
come on perfectly normal questions if not at that time or place.
RH
–are you trying to grab the whipster’s title of # 1 PITA on this forum?
WH likes Salsa, and you do Cha Cha Mumbo!!!
Interesting answer, which I’ll take as a “YES!” to the question.
Deep…!!!
Is this called Rene Ritchie Blue or TWC’s Dim Mak?
Hey Chango,
If you actually read the reply you quoted, you’ll notice I stated that I don’t think any of them properly or fully explain things. If I did, I wouldn’t waste any time on it (like I don’t on the origins of Cho Ga now that I understand them).
As to the rest, while I don’t jump through hoops, I’ll share what I can. I don’t know where TWC comes from. As you know, I see some problems with the Leung Bik story (as I, and others, including some TWC people, have posted many times). There appear to be elements distinctly Yip Man in the system, and elements which don’t conform to Yip Man or Leung Jan’s branch. Since its taught (or at least mostly taught) primarily in English, and Cheung sifu has claimed to have developed some aspects himself (the elbow/knee watching, the later knife set, perhaps the entry movement), it could be part ancestral, part modern (as the other systems are).
How am I viewed by my own martial family? To my face, one on one and in gatherings, without exception, they have been incredibly gracious and supportive (sometimes embarassingly so), in the US, in HK, and in China.
I don’t mind you asking these questions at all, and I don’t mind answering them. If someone finds a mistake or wants to offer a correction, I can only benefit and learn from it.
And, on a Wing Chun Forum, among Wing Chun brothers and sisters, what better time and place?
Did you ever see Sam say people shouldn’t discuss Fut Sao? (You didn’t complain about that either). Did you ever see KJ say people shouldn’t ask questions about Ken Chung? I’ve never seen the Leung Ting folks demand people not ask questions about him, and they’re seemingly endless.
Again, I believe if you only complain when something affects you personally, its not a truly moral complaint. If someone defends something they disagree with, because they know it’s right to do so, that’s virtuous (there’s some old saying about not agreeing with what people say but defending unto death their right to say it 
).
I do see your point. And I hope you notice I stay away from personalism. I don’t ask what your personal opinion is on a subject (as a VTM member, I assume you will post all information you have, regardless of your personal opinion), and I don’t ask how your extended Moy Yat family feels about your group. That’s petty politics and I could care less.
And remember, if it wasn’t for forums like this, and people like me asking the kinds of questions I do, and posting and writing the kinds of information I do, you may not have even heard of Hung Fa Yi (or at least not when you did), let alone be able to scold someone else for asking about it. (How’s that for poetic )
Don’t mean to bite into your training time, or to hog the last word. I pretty much think I’ve exhausted this subject, so if you want to offer me any corrections or insights, I leave the podium to you 8)
Rgds,
RR
The Peeples Elbow!!!
CAN YOU SMELLLLLL WHAT THE RENNNNN IS COOKINNNGGGGG!!!
I for one am going to continue to speculate and ask questions publicly on this forum on issues that interest me.
My “extended Kung Fu family”, TWC, is under the microscope here also. I’ve seen nothing to take offence at and honestly fail to see anything related to the subject at which a reasonable person would. Anyone who takes offence to my posts can go back to my Sifu if they wish, though I suspect his attitude would be similar to that taken by a rational adult to a juvenile telling tales out of school.
It is worth noting that a statement by Messrs Gee and Cheung, individually or together, perhaps on the VTM website, could clear this matter up for all time. As Benny Meng and my sihing Alf del-Brocco have collaborated on an published article, there is a precedent.
I thought the VT Museum was meant to be about determining accurate history. This would seem like a good issue to tackle, and probably fairly simple for the right people to resolve..
I cannot resist!!
<snip> Don’t mean to bite into your training time, or to hog the last word. I pretty much think I’ve exhausted this subject, so if you want to offer me any corrections or insights, I leave the podium to you 8)
Rene,
With a invitation like this I cannot resist:D I thank you for being aware of the fact that my responses may be delayed and sometimes nonexisting becuase my training time out ways my desire to express my opinion to a lot of people that I might not ever get the pleasure of meeting in person.
<snip> And remember, if it wasn’t for forums like this, and people like me asking the kinds of questions I do, and posting and writing the kinds of information I do, you may not have even heard of Hung Fa Yi (or at least not when you did), let alone be able to scold someone else for asking about it. (How’s that for poetic )
Thank you for bringing Huen Seun to us. So that the nonpublic version can come to light(HFY) I must give credit where credit is due. (insert single hand applaude) you should reread the post here. I did not have any problem with any question you had. I have no problem with forums like this one. In fact I think you know that. hell you are on every single forum or list envolving WCK that I have ever subscribed on well except one. you have quite a bit of cyber coverage! I don’t know if I had the time I might do that myself. Again there was no scolding just a suggestion to ask private questions to the parties envolved. I think my examples speak for themselves.
<snip>Again, I believe if you only complain when something affects you personally, its not a truly moral complaint. If someone defends something they disagree with, because they know it’s right to do so, that’s virtuous (there’s some old saying about not agreeing with what people say but defending unto death their right to say it ).
To be honest with you RR I only read the post that would possibly affect the VTM, HFY, or Moy Yat lineage. I’m on this forum for myself and nothing else. you may have a more noble cause in edjucating people on how you see WCK or WCK as a hole but I will be the first to admit that this is not my goal when posting on this forum and others. I simply do not have the time nor do I long to be reconized as a athourity on WCK. You may be different you may not. but that is not my concern. I will complain where I see something wrong. 
I cannot speak for everyone and to be honest I do not have the desire to. I hope you see what I’m saying by now. I think this post has had more then it’s share of my attention and deserves no more. thank you for your time.
Rgds,
Saat geng sau
Chango (saat bee sau )
Chango and CO. are like the African Killer Bees…Get too close to the beehive and they are gonna start buzzin’!!!
Too much “bok! b-bok! b-gok!!!” going on…! You guys sound like my grandmother’s chickens! We are all brothers in Wing Chun, or are we not!!! Go lay some eggs, if you must…!
But don’t forget tan sau, bong sau, lap sau, kwan sau, jit sau, gan da, fuk sau, wu sau, biu sau…
bok bok?But don’t forget tan sau, bong sau, lap sau, kwan sau, jit sau, gan da, fuk s
enough bok bok and you could make a book out of it
and a new edition could be a book-book.Never underestimate the distinction between bok and bok.
OTOH, FWIW- bok bok is an important mok jong step-the mok mok
or is that the biu biu. I forget- gotta relearn the slt as Rolling hand suggested.
Yuanfen - Can you dance??
Recently you cha cha mumbo too much…!!!
Can you handle FULL SWING ?
Rolling hand ::Dances and dances. Can you nautch, bhangra,
obanga, santhali?