Defense against Mua Thai Round House

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

Hi Phil,

IMHO, I can be wrong totally.

the high picture shows trouble with shoulder at impact
and an opening on the rib for swing /“clamping” knee or low to high round house target to the rib.

The mid picture doesn’t look like capable to slice in or sustain a round horse kick and the neck area is open for slide/close in elbow strike because both hands are too low from the head…

Again I can be dead wrong and I might not know nothing.

Based on my experience with them
Be real carefull… the dynamic chain effect momentum…

22

IMHO - there are many defenses for a roundhouse kick - all depends on your range, reaction speed, the kicker, and what result you are trying to achieve.

Stepping in and kicking the standing leg or attacking the center is an obvious solution if you have the opportunity. But that’s “only” if you have the opportunity. I have seen guys fake the kick and throw punches instead and nail the guy who’s rushing in - so it doesn’t always work - unless the guy you’re sparring/fighting is really stupid or slow as hell.

I find that a double gong sau (upper and lower) can work to quickly cover a large area, but is weaker structurally than that of a kwan sau which can also cover the same area from waist to head. A good kwun sau and bong gerk can effectively cover the entire area from top to bottom and can be the round kickers worst nightmare. Of course there is some timing involved, but frequent practice with good kickers will solve that. From experience - I know it works very well against some of the heaviest round kicks. Doing it wrong = broken arms.

Just my two cents.

23

Ill just give my 2 cents as an X Karate guy.
In karate they generally kick and then bring the foot back before putting it down. There are disadvantages and advantages to this.
Advantage: the leg is hard to catch
Disadvantage: its not as powerful as a muay thai kick

So the disadvantage in the muay thai kick is that they drop there leg straight after, which makes it very easy to catch. They dont care about it being caught because its against the rules of the ring to catch the leg. Once you have caught a leg, well…I think we all know what to do. So in a reaslistic setting they arent going to be able to pull there kick off many times.

Coming in close and all that it ideal of course, but even if you somehow get caught in that range Ive found that nicely angled tan sau with a gan sau still works ok if you position it so the leg hits the tan so that it slides down the tan arm and into the wedge between the tan and gan. At this point you pull your gan up to something that looks like a tan and you have caught their leg. Of course if you are at that range its just as easy to pull out of range (and safer of course).

24

Thai counter for a round kick is a round kick.

Next is a push kick to the supporting leg, kicking leg, hip, or higher if need be.

Knees.

Then I would worry about moving out of the way or deflecting/blocking if all else fails.

Good resource for thai: www.defend.net - Lots of discussion concerning Master Charn.

There are also many catches/traps for thai kicks.

:eek:

25

At the very bottom of this page you can see an example of a TWC front kick block. It is similar to the mid level round kick block.
Ther is also an example of a roundhouse kick block mis labeled to say Kan sao. It should read Kwan sau. I’ll get that changed.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/tech.asp

At the bottom of this page you can see some of the TWC footwork.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/form.asp

If the mid level round kick came to my right side, (whether I am in a L/R side neutral or L/R front stance) I will step into right T stance. My left foot empties my left side by forming horizontal line to the vertical line my front foot forms. Sort of like an upside down T. My feet should be far enough apart to maintain a stable base. Not too close and not too far apart. My left hand will parry the kick away from my body. My right hand simultaneously contacts the leg with a gam sau. Remembe the step empties the left side of my body away from the incoming kick. The gan/gam combination allows me to push the kick downwards extending the center of gravity of the kicker down and away from his body. Some kickers can throw really fast high/low multiple kick combos. By forcing their center of gravity forward/downward it become diffult for them to throw multiple kick combinations. Next, my T step allow me to place the weight on my rear, (left) leg. I can then quickly kick to the groin or leg of the kicker. After training repeatedly in this you can time it just right. A similar principle is used against a high round kick. In this instance the tan in the kwan covering the head immediatly juts downward enough to pull the center of gravity of the kicker away from the body. Another way is to change both arms into a double lop sau pulling the kicking leg down while kicking to the groin.
Phil

26

Miles Teg wrote:

So the disadvantage in the muay thai kick is that they drop there leg straight after, which makes it very easy to catch. They dont care about it being caught because its against the rules of the ring to catch the leg.

I agree MT kick is easier to catch.
However that is not against the rules in MT.

They do have a few restrictions on what is allowed AFTER the leg is caught but catching the leg is allowed.

27

Is it good to stop a round house kick by intercepting at the knee area of the round kick with a front kick; reason being that knee does not have as much lateral movement as the foot?

28

In my experience dealing with kickers and applying what I have been taught in W/C. I understand the reasoning as to why you use legs for leg attacks and hands for hand attacks. First, why use a small bone (such as the arm bone) to try and protect yourself from an incoming leg wich is much more stronger and has more mass wich is gaining strength as it is coming at you faster in a split second? Secondly, why waste all of that precious time waiting for the foot to get to the range where your kwan sao will be? why not go to the root of the kick? it is the most slowest part of the kick and it will always be there when you strike it( the hip) dealing with more experienced kickers and trying to focus on the striking part of a kick is like trying to catch a boxers jab with your hand, (DANGEROUS). The hip is where the kick is developed and dependent on. If you strike the hip you will stop the kick and always be sure to have a faun sao. After seeing what I have written do not take this in the sense as me telling the Kung Fu world what they should all do. This is just what I have been taught and what works for me. If what you are doing works for you then by all means keep on going with it. I am just adding some flavor to this thread.

29

Hello AztecaPreist,

I agree with you on that …hands against hands legs against legs…what kind of kick do you use to intercept at the hip - a front kick?

30

with the front kick you are talking about a whole new body alignment attacking you. with the round house the leg has to swing around like a hooking punch. with a front kick the centerline is occupied so going for the hip will create force against force where the greater mass will win. For me I would first try to recognize the attack by body structure. for the front kick to be effective the knee first has to come up. with advanced martial artist this is where they like to trick their opponents. by bringing almost all kicks with the knee raising up from center as not to give away what kick they are going to use. Wich staying calm and not freezing play a big part on reaction time. For me where I am lined up to my attacker would dictate what strike I would use against the front kick. I could use a wong erk or a pak gerk. it all depends on body alignment and range. All I know is my biggest fear is trying to first recognize what is coming at me and being able to react to it as efficiently as I can. :smiley:

31

hello all.

we use quan sao, as a position against roundhouse kicks and
with practice it is quite effective. if its a proper mt roundhouse
where the kick has very penetrating affect it is very wise to kick
out the supporting leg as you enter toward the body mass of
your attacker.

my sifu C.Douglas, has many good stories of Grandmaster Cheung, using kwansao and also double pak sao against round kick attacksfrom proficient kickers. my sifu says Grandmaster Cheung would often grab hold of the attacking limb after using either kwan or double pak and would pull the leg down onto his rising knee adding a further element of injury to the attacker. My sifu says that this was an awesome thing to see.

sifu Ian Protheroe, has some great methods for dealing with
round kicks on his Video that i purchased recently, from both TWC parallel and cross stances, his concepts are explained well and easily understood.

bye for now

32

If i am standing with my right leg forward and he attacks with a right leg roundhouse then i do a stomping right front kick aimed just above the knee of his KICKING leg. If he kicks with his left foot and i have my right foot forward, then i do a side kick to the same target on the kicking leg or sometimes higher due to a sidekicks longer range. Why higher? Because i find that kicking higher up closer to the hip on the kicking leg usually moves his hips/center back just enough to take most of the force out of the kick if not stop it all together.

33

it may have been mentioned already, but im with shuul. i like jamming at the crease of the groin. stomp, side, knee, palm … pretty much any attack will neutralize the power if you get it fairly close to that crease.

34

Originally posted by AztecaPreist
In my experience dealing with kickers and applying what I have been taught in W/C. I understand the reasoning as to why you use legs for leg attacks and hands for hand attacks. First, why use a small bone (such as the arm bone) to try and protect yourself from an incoming leg wich is much more stronger and has more mass wich is gaining strength as it is coming at you faster in a split second? Secondly, why waste all of that precious time waiting for the foot to get to the range where your kwan sao will be? why not go to the root of the kick? it is the most slowest part of the kick and it will always be there when you strike it( the hip) dealing with more experienced kickers and trying to focus on the striking part of a kick is like trying to catch a boxers jab with your hand, (DANGEROUS). The hip is where the kick is developed and dependent on. If you strike the hip you will stop the kick and always be sure to have a faun sao. After seeing what I have written do not take this in the sense as me telling the Kung Fu world what they should all do. This is just what I have been taught and what works for me. If what you are doing works for you then by all means keep on going with it. I am just adding some flavor to this thread.

Spot on.

IMO to hip is the target for neary all jams at it moves precious little and is a larger taget.

35

defense option questions

If you can catch the kick from the gan/tan combination by turning the gan into a tan leaving the kick in the crook of the elbow your in a great position to follow through on one of the following:

  1. Take balance and turn your oponent by simultaneously pulling the inside of the knee joint and the ankle back against your upper torso. With your opponents leg cradled against your chest apply pressure and crank/break the ankle by turning the upper torso.

  2. Alternatively instead of cranking pull the balance out with both hands to the inside of the knee joint as you do a full step back.

  3. tan/gan catch and reverse sweep the rear leg.

Phil would you always use a side step? I find it much more stable to come into a side neutral from the front stance and turn to face the point of contact, this way your stance is aligned at 90 degrees to the direction of the kick.

I must admit I find most kick defences a little hard to pull of against a good kicker in a random sparring situation. In this situation i usually try to jam the hip with a side or front kick while protecting my scone, or stick to the basic check blocks and strike immediately after the kick while cutting off to one side.

36

simple suggestion

As a professional Thai boxer I think I can say exactly what works and what does not work with a degree of accuracy.

Using the arms, hands, forearms, etc to block a Thai kick will get you hurt. At best a full power kick will only collapse your arms if you attempt to block the strike, at worse it will break your arm, I have seen this happen it is not pretty.

The best way to block a leg kick is with a shield, use your shin to block the incoming hit. This is what we do in Thailand and we do it because it works most of the time.

As for intercepting the kick you have two choices, be at the very beginning of the power curve or the very end.

If you are standing in front an opponent and he begins to kick if you want to jam the kick at the start of the power curve kick him in the thingh of his supporting leg while he kicks.

To catch the kick you need to move to the outside of the power curve. As the kick comes in you need to move to the side following the arc the kick makes to catch it. The Kick really begins to lose power when the opponents hips are closed. Just experiment and you will find out just where to pick the right time to catch the kick.

Marc

37

marc scott sez:
Using the arms, hands, forearms, etc to block a Thai kick will get you hurt

Marc is worth listening to…using kwan sao againsta powerful
thai kick- if your timing is even a little off- can result in broken arms-
for most wc folks. A little knowledge is dangerous in any field.

38

Ahem…

39

TwoManSaw…

That video is pretty good! Sifu Protheroe looks like he knows his stuff.

40

Re: simple suggestion

Originally posted by marc_scott
[B]As a professional Thai boxer I think I can say exactly what works and what does not work with a degree of accuracy.

Using the arms, hands, forearms, etc to block a Thai kick will get you hurt. At best a full power kick will only collapse your arms if you attempt to block the strike, at worse it will break your arm, I have seen this happen it is not pretty.[/b]

I totally agree that you cannot block a Thai kick. But that doesn’t mean that you can’t negate a that kick, just that you can’t block one. in order to have a good chance at avoiding it you have to first know its coming, then you have to get out of it’s way, then you have to attack.

The best way to block a leg kick is with a shield, use your shin to block the incoming hit. This is what we do in Thailand and we do it because it works most of the time.

I wonder if you read my post earlier, and if you’d care to comment on it directly. Good advice for anyone is to use what works most of the time.

[b]As for intercepting the kick you have two choices, be at the very beginning of the power curve or the very end.

If you are standing in front an opponent and he begins to kick if you want to jam the kick at the start of the power curve kick him in the thingh of his supporting leg while he kicks.[/b]

I have always thought that one of the centeral ideas to useing WC to fight is to never stand in front of you opponent. One should either be out of kicking range, rushing in, or already in contact. If they move in range and begin to kick, the WC fighter should already be intercepting them.

To catch the kick you need to move to the outside of the power curve. As the kick comes in you need to move to the side following the arc the kick makes to catch it. The Kick really begins to lose power when the opponents hips are closed. Just experiment and you will find out just where to pick the right time to catch the kick.

Catching kicks is hard, and only done as you said from the outside of the kick, once the hip is closed at the kick begins to lose power. The plan is to meet the kick there where you want to catch it, by moveing quickly inside the range of the kick. I have the gaul :smiley: to think I can make it there for the same reason the kicker is confedent the strike will work, practice, preactice, practice. :slight_smile:

Then you meet it at the thigh, the sofest part with the least power, but that is not to say the soft part with no power, just the part that is generally weaker and softer then the shin, knee or foot at the hieght of the power arc.

Kwan sau and seurn gahn sau both have the elbows down and in, and the shoulders deep in the sockets, with seung gahn (my prerferd method) the elbows amke a slight cutting motion into the flech of the thigh on contact, further disperseing the energy in the kick, and ideally disperseing ito the kickers hip. Kwan sau has a slightly difffernt roll, and would channel the energy back into me, moveing my base and setting me in place for my strike.

-OdderMensch

ps Baak gei, baak jiht.
100 techniques, 100 intercepts.