“I think MAists everywhere need to stop focusing on the most potentially devestating effects of their techniques and focus on the most probable.”
I agree completely. Although you should keep those most devastating possible effects in mind when working them, as a goal to aim for.
Furthermore, all techniques should be practiced with possible counters in mind, and possible counters to the counters, and so on.
strike to the temple
depending on the amount of force put to the temple,You CAn cause hemmoraging and possible death. the temple i beleive in the meridian theory is the GB8 which is a sensitive point.
as far as other Deadly tactics or areas to strike on the body.
with enough force behind the strike as in a kick ,the H1 or heart one point (which is located about an inch or two under the arm pit) you can facilitate a heart frib or a stop.
ever been rabbit punched in the side of the rib cage,,,,i know i have,,it hurts and DOES facilitate an immune system drop. i know this from experience.
i also agree with Neptunesfall that any attack can be potentially deadly.
MRTWS
"depending on the amount of force put to the temple,You CAn cause hemmoraging and possible death. the temple i beleive in the meridian theory is the GB8 which is a sensitive point. "
Yes.
It´s quite a killer as it actually does two fatal things at once,if you hit right.
When hit,muscles of temple region tighten/tense up powerfully and the artery running trough the area is damaged.
Then there is the pressure point you´re talking about (you mentioned gall bladder point,I thought it was stomach point but thinking about it now you might be right.I might check that one out from a book) Then it combines the pressure point damage in it…
But there are many other less lethal influences which may pop out,if it does not carry away.
"with enough force behind the strike as in a kick ,the H1 or heart one point (which is located about an inch or two under the arm pit) you can facilitate a heart frib or a stop. "
nuki-te (spearhand) or a finger attack might just do that.
I don´t know if it´s the same point we´re talking but while in general,armpit strike may hurt and release a grip,there´s a point/area in armpit itself which could cause instant malfunction/death (which may not be the worst case as it may cause delayed death trough hours or even days of slight suffocation-greater suffocation of various disturbing effects)
It seems western medicine might find some support for this for there are various nerves (pressure points),blood vessels etc. at the area,but I can´t explain that so much further.
“true, neptune, but to discuss them as “deadly attacks,” is silly.”
right . .. but i thought the discussion was in the context of what
could happen. even the thread title itself denoted a bit of sarcasim with the quotes around deadly. so basically i agree with you, but i don’t think anyone here said they expected the possible resuls 100% of the time. just discussing the possiblities.
Hey FC
i think that point IS Stomach 8. i was thinking GB,but that point is located atthe base of the ear where the lower and upper jaw connects.
I don’t pretend to understand this stuff
but to forestall the inevitable ‘how’d you do that in UFC?’ argument, I’d like to propose something:
Not all of these techniques are lethal, IIRC, so couldn’t you (not you, former castleva, just a general ‘you’) set up a competition involving ONLY dim mak, and have lots of TCM guys on hand to treat the losers and winners? Wouldn’t this prove, well, something? Just a thought, and it might be thought-less.
“i think that point IS Stomach 8. i was thinking GB,but that point is located atthe base of the ear where the lower and upper jaw connects.”
Oh,that clears it up.Thanks for the note.
{i^(
That´s an interesting idea in a way but I´m not sure if I completely understand by proving?
I think this kind of studies should only be applied in totally controlled enviroment.And when in controlled enviroment,certain things like person´s age (who is getting affected),possible limitations/sicknesses or/and internal organ issues should be remembered.
There are points which can,as far as my limited knowledge goes,can be used for training/demonstration things,requiring that the same person is also able to helpt the victim recover.
We must also understand that many points do carry various influences on their own (in one point itself) while you could safely say that "let´s see,this one would possibly cause a knock-out if pressed…"but if the power is strong enough a heart attack may follow.
Then here come the points which cause immediate effects which in some cases,cannot be healed,and there are many.
Not to forget those which cause quick death which even modern science can´t handle.
By ‘proving’ I mean: there is a kind of confusion about the whole dim mak premise, at least for myself.
If these are simply points that one can ‘touch’, and people die (depending on various factors), then there would be mysterious deaths abounding from persons touching themselves at random times of day, or getting their hands shook at say, noon. Doesn’t happen, as far as I know.
So, looking at the other side of the equation, it’s the kind of hit (power-wise) done by the dim mak guy that does it. But then it follows that it’s not the dim mak point that does it, necessarily.
So, then it’s the interaction of the two that does it, right? Maybe, maybe not. I’ve never seen this tested, and I’m not sure how one could go about it. A contest would/could be controlled, so that’s what I meant to say.
{i^(
Thanks for being specific and replying.
I believe you are not alone with those worries,there seem to be some mystical clouds hiding this issue.
"If these are simply points that one can ‘touch’, and people die (depending on various factors), then there would be mysterious deaths abounding from persons touching themselves at random times of day, or getting their hands shook at say, noon. Doesn’t happen, as far as I know. "
Yeah,that´s something to think of.
The name “death touch”/dim mak may sound a bit romantic even though I believe it was never meant to be.There are those myths of some ancient warrior monks touching their opponent´s leaving them dead 
that´s what they say.
It has been noticed that a person with very high sense of sensitivity which I mean chi,could shock a person with a light touch (but of course in modern times those persons would be a few) Besides that,plain gentle touching of a point that you´re talking about is very good for healing (say you stimulate a point which helps you to sleep) to disturb the chi you use the same point but you don´t just “touch” it,this is where some mystical myth stuff feeds you with misunderstanding-you manipulate it “violently” (touch is a drilling press,rub or sharp strike.Where the last time in healing-wise you had a good night sleep,now you do have terrible insomnia and you weaken)
"So, looking at the other side of the equation, it’s the kind of hit (power-wise) done by the dim mak guy that does it. But then it follows that it’s not the dim mak point that does it, necessarily. "
proper force,angle,location,time,form…these all matter.While for another point a palm slap may do the job,phoenix eye will certainly fit better for another spot.Not to mention the correct angle to strike with,enough of force (which may also have things to do with your level of sensitivity and what you “wish” to commit) exactly right location,not nearly right location and proper time (I shall really note though,that even though the time may not be right,you can compensate by putting more force into whatever your attack is,and even without more force,you will still be likely to affect some) Because these things matter,it also explains why our bodies may not collapse when we accidentally knock our shoulder against a wall.
BTW,especially at higher levels,it is also necessary to understand that using plain muscle to force the effect may not be enough,you have to join your own energy and deliver power from your body etc. (that´s a bit difficult concept and I hope you remember while reading that I´m not very familiar with this advanced level matter)
“So, then it’s the interaction of the two that does it, right? Maybe, maybe not. I’ve never seen this tested, and I’m not sure how one could go about it. A contest would/could be controlled, so that’s what I meant to say”
Allright,can´t say much more to that except my choises of words in my last post would seem to limit this kind of competition into a rather limited experience,but that´s if my idea works.
When it comes to testing this somehow reminds me of the personal breaktroughs of the committed martial artists of the old times,like samurai who tested the practicality of their swords on criminals with no hope and various related experiences.
Guys, ‘dim mak’ is not a system of martial arts. It’s a generic term, the chinese term, for an aspect of martial arts that is as present in boxing as in taijiquan. In traditional chinese martial arts is it based upon a traditional chinese understanding of the body? Yes - what else do you expect? Think about it for a second.
People have a tendancy to over-react and therefore misinterpret things from other cultures. It happens constantly in threads on this topic.
Excellent point, as ever, Braden. But dim mak is one of those rather mysterious terms bruited about by persons, some of whom are just out to bilk money, that seems very unlikely on first, second, and third hearing. I’m not trained in it, so of course my take is very skeptical. FAIK, its the best thing on earth.
That said, don’t let this deter any of you from discussing it in further detail. I don’t want to be seen as squelching things- not my intention.
You’re quite right. But there’s people out there in anything just trying to bilk money.
You’re not taught anything in class about where or how to hit or grasp people?
Sweeping generalizations are always dangerous, and in Wing Chun they are probably THE most dangerous things, LOL. It’s one of the reasons I like hanging out on the general lists. Really.
But, to answer the question, based on my experiences and knowledge thus far, it is not treated the same way/in the same detail as many other forms of kung fu seem to do it. WC aims to be practical, so the question is not specifically framed as where when how to hit, but CAN you hit in the first place? It does no good to argue particulars if you can’t land the strike. All strikes are “aimed” to the centerline (really, helped to the center by the opponent), although some lineages aim primarily for areas on the head/throat, IIRC.
And, as for my lineage in particular, very little is discussed or practiced, application-wise. You need the ‘engine’ of how the art moves first, without leaving the path of learning it. Well, so goes the teaching theory, anyhow. It’s still a practical concern: what good is it to know what it does, if you can’t do it? See? I’ll admit it’s pretty odd at times, but I’m a lot more open-minded about what a particular technique can do than some, and I’m willing to experiment with unlikely responses. [standard paranoiac disclaimer to WCers reading this: thats my opinion, please get a life]
Now, some lineages do study dim mak, but IIRC that is a higher level than where I’m at now. Frankly, I’ve not heard it discussed in my lineage, but that doesn’t mean it’s not there to be learned. [They’re pretty traditional, sshh! LOL]
Sorry for writing so much. It’s a complicated thing to explain.
GDA–
Sorry! That was a general comment and in no way was it directed at you! I find deadly strikes and the like to be kind of silly–but I had already established that and didn’t really need to apply that generalization again, I guess
Cheers
James
If you strike with enough power, your strike is potentially deadly. There’s no mystique in that.
Sure, certain points in the body are more susceptible. That’s pretty obvious, too.
Since I don’t doubt the effect of acupuncture (and dunno why somebody would – go out and test it), I’m quite sure those points can be used in combat. Hell, a knowledge of western medicine can have a bearing on how and where you land your strikes. I don’t think there’s any fantastically mysterious points out there : your opponent is not going explode.
How practical this point striking is then, is questionable IMHO. If you’re skilled enough and powerful enough there is no need to strike these points. If you have enough kung fu – that’s all you need.
Of course, any type of aiming a strike is sort of “dim mak”, kinda what Braden seemed to imply (?), too. No mystery to that.
I don’t believe in any point that gets you killed by just touching it. What I do know to be true is a skilled practicioner punching with one-inch-power, ie. not requiring the fist (for example) to travel more than just a inch or two, making the punch look pretty impressive and not much more than just a touch. Baji is pretty famous for this. Taiji develops similar power. Those are arts I’m familiar with. I believe the touch-and-KO myths come from such things.
The word “touch” is confusing from a Western perspective.
From an Eastern perspective, “touch” can mean “grab” or “strike”.
Western science has long proven that there are some really deadly points on the body that if struck or grabbed can cause death.
Depending on the need, some people just might need to strike those points. If you are a woman who’s trying to fight off a would-be rapist, you had better have some knowledge of those points so that you can have a framework of where to aim your attacks.
My experience is that squeezing or striking some of those deadly points can be really traumatic. I’ve practiced on myself some of that stuff, and I have had to exert extreme caution.
Trust me, most of us (including myself) WOULD die if some of those points (particularly the 36 killing ones) were successfully grabbed.
Training one’s martial art to fit that science hardly seems unreasonable or unrealistic to me.
Those 36 points can be found from CMA dim mak,even though there are countless points and all not possibly even understood,there are some kind of list made on how many points do this or that (but one has to remember that a point which belongs to a certain category may in some cases,cause other effects too)
“Training one’s martial art to fit that science hardly seems unreasonable or unrealistic to me”
Yeah,it´s one part,important one and there´s more.
This,I think,is essential to understand.
“Western science has long proven that there are some really deadly points on the body that if struck or grabbed can cause death.”
Any links or references to these studies or other examples?
I’m purely curious in an intellectual sense and my question should not be taken as potentially offensive. Just thought I’d stress that.
I’m no longer in medicine, but there are countless stories of people dying (particularly young athletes in sports or martial arts training) from this type of stuff.
Also, accupuncture is recognized by most Western medical physicians as a legitimate medical art.