Well said Joseph. Now that this is settled with the elders (the people who actually set policy), we can get on to meaningful discussions about CLF.
Aren’t you all glad that its over?
Peace to all brothers and sisters in the CLF family.
T. Cunningham
HISTORY FROM LKH LINE AS TOLD BY SIFU SAM LEE
History of Hung Sing Choy Lay Fut
The birthplace of Choy Lay Fut was in the county of Futsan, Guangzhou province, China.
Chang Heung was a village teacher who was known to be proficient in Martial Art and he taught in the Chan Clan of King Mui village in Sun Hui county. One day a young Martial Arts enthusiast by the name of Jeong Yim was introduced to him. Jeong Yim was in need of temporary abode and Chan Heung took him in. It was said that Chan secretly imparted his knowledge of the Choy and Lay Kar fighting techniques to Jeong Yim, as strict traditional clan rules forbid him from doing so openly since Jeong Yim was an outsider.
When the village elders discovered this secret years later, Chan had to send Jeong Yim away. He gave him a letter of introduction to a Shaolin Monk by the name of Chi Cho (Green Grass) at Mount Bakpei. (Chan was supposed to have gone under the monk for study in the Shaolin fighting art years ago but due to some reasons, it did not materialise). The monk accepted Jeong Yim as his student.
He not only mastered the Shaolin Palm techniques but also acquired knowledge on the use of herbal medicine from the monk. Before his departure from Mount Bakpai, the Monk gave him an alias.
He was to be known henceforth as Jeong Hong Sing - with the implied meaning that the Hong (Hung) Moon (Triad Organisation of that time) would “Sing” - triumph over the Ching Government.
Upon his return to the village, Jeong Hung Sing awed the villagers with his skill and was received warmly by Chan. Jeong Hung Sing reciprocated his teacher by sharing his newfound skill with him. They accorded each other with the respect as fellow disciples and began to synthesise the fighting skill from the three different schools of Choy, Lay and Fut (Buddha).
The art which they referred to as “Fut Kar Zheng Zhung” - meaning, the origin of Shaolin.
Every school of Martial Arts has their own unique form of salutation. The founders of Choy Lay Fut developed a series of fast and successive movements as the Choy Lay Fut salutation. These movements with esoteric names were personifications of a poem, which contained revolutionary sentiments. The poem consists of four stanzas with a main character in each stanza. When the four characters were stringed together in sequence, it would read “Overthrow the Ching, restore the Ming”
The founding of Futsan Hong Sing Koon
The name Jeong Hong Sing became synonymous to Choy Lay Fut. The first ever Hong Sing Koon was founded in 1839 by Jeong Hong Sing in Futsan county of Guangzhou province. Among his choice disciples were Chan Ngau Sing, Lei Yan, Tam Lup, Lui Chan and many others.
There were soon more than a dozen branches of Hong Sing Koon in Futsan county as the fighting art gained wide recognition. The popularity of this Martial Art spread to other counties and cities. Many Martial Artists from other schools came to challenge Jeong Hong Sing. They were all defeated. Some became his students; other left with bruises and a bruised ego.
The death of Jeong Hong Sing
The popularity of Choy Lay Fut eclipsed the names of many other Martial Art schools in Guangdong. It created much displeasure to the Martial Artists of other schools because it affected their livelihood.
One day Jeong was ambushed by a group of armed men at the pier where he was to board a boat to the Chan Village. He recognised some of them as Martial Artists he had defeated before. A fierce fight ensued as Jeong used the oil-paper umbrella he was carrying as weapon and put up a good fight.
Three of the assailants were dead and a number of them wounded as the rest of them fled. Jeong was badly wounded as he staggered back to Futsan Hong Sing Koon.
He died from his wounds shortly after.
Regionalisation of Choy Lay Fut
Chan Hau Shing and the rest of Jeong’s students went on a rampage in Futsan to seek out their teachers killers. Those who were responsible for the incident went into hiding and in desperation, some of then sought refuge with the Manchu government.
They charged that Futsan Hong Sing Koon was the headquarter of anti-government activities. That led to a clamp down on Choy Lay Fut practitioners and the closure of Futsan Hong Sing Koon.
Jeong’s students scattered and successfully spread Choy Lay Fut throughout China.
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There is some inconsistence in the version of history as posted by Setansi:
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The birthplace of CLF was in Sun Hui and not Futsan, this was even acknowledged by Futsan Hung Sing recently. However, the birthplace of Futsan Hong Sing was in Futsan.
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The story that Jeong Yim was not allowed to learn Choy and Lay Kar fighting techniques because he was an outsider was not consistent with history. Chan Heung taught many outstanding students like Loong Gee-Choi and others with non-Chan surnames.
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The name Jeong Hong Sing as applied to Jeong Yim does not implied ¡§triumph over the Ching Government¡¨. The character Hong in this case (made up of radicals for river and bird) is not the same as in Hong in Hong Moon.
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Jeong Yim founded the Futsan Hong Sing Koon in 1851 and not 1893. Futsan Hong Sing celebrated their 150 years anniversary last year.
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The death of Jeong Yim was not clear, Futsan Hong Sing said in their journal last year he died peacefully at the age of 70.
The story/myth that CLF was a misnomer and its real name was Fut Gar Jing Chung was first touted in the early 70s. It was criticized by the elders of the time and was dropped soon after. It looks like it is making its round again.
hahahahahahahahahaaa
fool-paw…hahah…hahahaa…hahahahahahahahahahahahahjoseph too…hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha …hahahahahahahahahahahahaha…hahahahahahahahahahah…ha…haa…hahaha…hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa
hahahahahahahaaaaaa
i can see that this historical dedauchery will never exceed the confines of this forum. you people here are so funny to me. i know that joseph is bs’ing you guys again because we called fut san and asked about a few things last week, joseph names a huang, well which one, there is truly one head of the fut san branch, but he remains in the background. there are many sifu in fut san of hsk and they will do what ever they will do. as for me, it doesn’t matter. sets don’t mean a thing when it comes to survival. what it truly comes down to it is “can you effectively defend yourself using your clf and not some boxing or kickboxing type moves?” or are you all just some studio fighters? real big in the studio but run and hide when someone really puts a whoopin’ on your ass. but most of you don’t understand what i am talking about…it’s all good though!
truly the history aspect doesn’t have anything to do with me knowing how to use my clf. only poosies have to fight with words, attempting to outwit the other, and publicly embarrass someone. just as jospeph wishes to debate with master dave lacey, he won’t meet with him in person, but behind a computer screen he will stand his ground. meet master lacey, and you can bring your friend “camron” with you. joseph, elequencey with words is all you possess. don’t fool yourself. joseph, you have know idea how close we are in fut san, we know what is happening, if someone comes around asking questions, etc. our contact w/ fut san is almost daily. but nice try anyway.
frank
See I was right, he’s losing it…notice the maniacal laughter in his last post.
what it truly comes down to it is “can you effectively defend yourself using your clf and not some boxing or kickboxing type moves?” or are you all just some studio fighters? real big in the studio but run and hide when someone really puts a whoopin’ on your ass. but most of you don’t understand what i am talking about…it’s all good though!
No really Frank, your the only kung fu player that’s ever used his kung fu in a fight:rolleyes: …give your ego a break Frank…your just overworking it now…you know what they say about overworking your ego… you’ll go blind and grow hair on your palms
That’s it, Frank. Don’t debate the points that Joseph raises. Don’t keep the discussion friendly or try to reassert your position with logic and cool-headed interplay. Just shout about how good you think your kung fu is and neatly avoid the points once again.
:rolleyes:
Re: hahahahahahahaaaaaa
Originally posted by yik-wah-tik
that joseph is bs’ing you guys again because we called fut san and asked about a few things last week, joseph names a huang, well which one, there is truly one head of the fut san branch, but he remains in the background. there are many sifu in fut san of hsk and they will do what ever they will do.
If my memory serves me right, his name is Huang Zhen-Jiang (or Wong Jang-Gong in Cantonese) and he is suppose to be the official head (Gwoon Jeung) of the Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon. The title of the paper he delivered was called “The Origin of Futshan Hong Sheng Guang and its Contribution to the Development of CMA”. If you want me to, I can look up last years journal (if you have a copy) and point out a picture of the man for you.
If they didn’t tell you about the CLF seminar/conference in Sun Hui where hundreds of elders and even the vice mayor of Sun Hui attended, then they are trying to pull the wool over your eyes. Obviously you don’t know about the politics behind the Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon and the newly established Buck Sing Gwoon in Siu Buck Guangzhou either (the problem was caused by the hidden head if you want to know) and the corruption scandal on top of that. You think you know the people in the bakground but you don’t know who is pulling the string. Who has the last hahahahahahahahaaaaaa now?
BTW, what kind of setup you have in Futsan where the head does not know what the tail is doing (your quote: there are many sifu in fut san of hsk and they will do what ever they will do)? If you don’t know Chinese then it is always wise to double check the information given to you.
O.k.- just a question, and some comments…
either out of naivity or clarity (that is for the reader to decide…).
What is the motivation behind this controversy and what does this controversy really do for CLF on the whole? I mean does it change/improve/disprove or resolve anything? Does it make one a legitimate practitioner of CLF on one hand and some sort of red headed step child?
From what I see, the big uproar really seems to focus on is legitimacy, no? But legitimacy of what? (Please, bear with me for a second… and mind you, I am no where near as well versed on this subject as your most novice participant in this thread…).
There seems to be two sources that validate you as a martial artist: association and skill.
As for association: I do see the point that some will bring up with this: one gets the pure water from a head of the stream. I think that has merit, and it is more likely that you’ll get the ‘right stuff’ (whatever that is…) from that lineage.
However, I’m sure that everyone who would read this has met someone, somewhere, whether in MA circles or elsewhere that has the pedigree, but just don’t know what they are doing (and that’s not being insulting, just realistic). I’ve met enough people that are ‘well lettered’ that still don’t know what they are doing to know that certification doesn’t mean qualification.
Moreover, does this arguement negate or invalidate the practical skills that the various people have developed or are able to teach? Say this arguement was very pragmatically solved (i.e. a 3rd party finds records in an independent library somewhere that pretty much conclusively point to a person being founder X of the system…), would that change anything? I mean, does it make the other branches somehow invalid?
Now, I do have a bit of interest in this, and some indirect expereinces, in that my sifu was able to see Lau Bun on occasion during the 60’s (as LB was teaching one of one of his instructors). Needless to say, he was more than impressed with how powerful he was, combatively speaking. He also spoke about how flawless he performed and regarding his high levels of training (the man could jump his own height + a little).
So, say, for instance, that the hung sing branch of CLF was somehow a ‘counterfit’, wouldn’t that make LB and others a counterfit as well? Skill wise, however, I think you would have a hard time disproving that people like LB knew what they were doing.
I would suspect that there are others of that caliber (I don’t know, I know LB was very highly regarded as a superb fighter, which is, so the story goes, why he came to SF).
Which is what it all boils down to, doesn’t it? This isn’t about who’s right or who can develop better fighters or even who does the forms ‘right’. I bet if you took their top fighters from each branch, they’d all give each other a run for their money.
And, on the note of legitimacy through association: I think many people will hold to the idea that only those who were taught by the ‘right’ people will have the skills, abilities, etc. Do you think that even those people will teach their art from generation to generation without changes?
If you do, then you need to study more about human nature, epistimology and the transmission of knowledge. People change things all the time, (though that doesn’t mean they do it drastically differently.) and different people have differing teaching methods and relationary styles. Many people will also pick up or develop new ways of relating to things that are unique to them. Does this mean that they are not teaching the ‘art’ when they teach? Does that mean that, for instance, LB didn’t know what he was doing with respect to CLF when my instructor had seen him on multiple occasions?
And again, I am not arguing for just the hung sing branch, but any branch really. CLF is a pretty strong system skills wise, and from what I have seen/read, there is WAY more similarity than difference in these branches.
So, this brings me to the point of what is the point? What is the motivation for the divisions and politics? The only thing I can see is the desire for a few to have legitimate domination over CLF branches by lineage. What that will do, I have no idea, because it won’t change what other persons are doing and teaching. I mean, really. Outside of CLF circles, you think anyone looses sleep over this internal arguement? Nope. I think it is a very few people trying to jockey for a position that for CLF on the whole doesn’t really matter, because it will not change what others have learned.
So, I hope no one here is offended at these observations and comments, I would actually like to receive people’s feedback, so I can clarify these issues for myself. My cup is waiting to be filled. 
Also: what is the problem with just recognizing and sharing the title of CLF among the differing groups? I mean, you can have different methods of doing the same thing, no? So, again, the motivations are unclear and questionable for why this arguement even is going on.
Again: This isn’t meant to be any sort of attack, just more of a question/comment meant to generate information about the reasons for this arguement. Sorry also for any ramblings; it is late!
Ciao!
EG
EG
Her is my two cents worth of feedback:
I guest it all boiled down to Confucian ethics and the idea of respecting and upholding your tradition and ancestry. Fidelial piety is very strong in Chinese culture and knowing the source of the water you are drinking from is a also very strong in CMA tradition.
To have someone telling you that the founder of your system is no longer the real founder, but in fact one of his disciples is now considered the new founder by decreed, is quite an insult to many people. It is a bit like saying your great-great grandfather is no longer your great-great grandfather but someone else was and you are now an offspring of a line of ba$tards.
We know it is nothing much to worry about if you are skilful and confident of what you are doing, but most of us are insecure and some of us just want to know the truth for truth sake, hence the motivation for endless debates, especially when some people started to get personal.
Stay away from all this if you don’t think it is worth the trouble. The truth of the matter is that we are having fun and all this is making us learning more about our history and about human nature.
XJo