[QUOTE=Buddha_Fist;1158773]Basing again the whole argument on the premise of people using Chi-Sao with the same purpose, performing it in the same way, and that proving that the end result is reflected by that… Jumping jacks again… I know a lot of people that are awesome at Chi-Sao, yet have no clue about timing, distance, footwork, etc. when sparring. No need to over-complicate things, stick to the bottom line (fighting competition), it’s that simple.
Now, does participating or winning in a MMA or other combat sport competition automatically attest to the level of your Wing Chun? No. It proves that you have sharpened your attributes (endurance, speed, timing, punching power, etc.) with whatever tools you are using and that they worked against specific individuals at a specific time of your martial art career. You can do that with whatever method/martial art you are using and can call your thing whatever you want. Whether it is in other people’s mind good Wing Chun depends on whether you are following Wing Chun principles and its body mechanics, as well as the eye of the beholder. There is no need to justify here with words what you do. If it’s good Ving Tsun, then people will recognize it as such. If people don’t, suck it up and continue working hard on it. That’s what a fighter does.[/QUOTE]
And your point is what?
I posted a clip to share. People like it or not - no problem at all.
We have tested our system of wing chun on many levels. You can either see that or not. - no problem
You what to test chi sao with pressure or not - no problem
But people telling me its wrong, then I have to answer and question them.
I really don’t have a problem with people not liking what we do. But you can’t not tell me its not wing chun. Unless like graham you say its only wing chun if it doesn’t work lol
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1158770]--------------------------
And terrible (referring to chi sao pic from France)
joy[/QUOTE]
To me, the chi sau clip looked like 2 beginners, so didn’t look entirely ‘terrible’ if that’s the case.
Hey, I have a clip of one of your more experienced students doing ‘chi sau’ where they teach, maybe I should post that up so we can compare?
I posted a clip to share. People like it or not - no problem at all.
We have tested our system of wing chun on many levels. You can either see that or not. - no problem
You what to test chi sao with pressure or not - no problem
But people telling me its wrong, then I have to answer and question them.
I really don’t have a problem with people not liking what we do. But you can’t not tell me its not wing chun. Unless like graham you say its only wing chun if it doesn’t work lol[/QUOTE]
Why can’t people tell you what they see or don’t see? That’s the whole point of a forum, isn’t it? No need to start misconstruing what others said to defend yourself or what you do. Graham never wrote that something is only Ving Tsun when it doesn’t work.
[QUOTE=Buddha_Fist;1158776]Why can’t people tell you what they see or don’t see? That’s the whole point of a forum, isn’t it? No need to start misconstruing what others said to defend yourself or what you do. Graham never wrote that something is only Ving Tsun when it doesn’t work.[/QUOTE]
People can say what they like of course. I am only replying to the lack of understanding that some have. If I have never had first hand experience I don’t post my opinions as it would lack meaning.
[QUOTE=Alan Orr;1158774]. But you can’t not tell me its not wing chun. [/QUOTE]
Oh yes one can tell you that it is NOT Wing Chun. If that’s Wing Chun then the World Kickboxing Association is full of Wing Chun practitioners. And BTW if I may I would like to refute one point not made by you but another respondent:granted most Wing Chun, as well as most other martial arts, are practiced with a compliant partner. But even sparring is practicing with a compliant partner because your partner does not have the intent to cream you into smithereens. To me the argument that sparring makes one a better fighter is at best disingenuous. The more realistic you make practice the better it is. But unless you showing me that you are in an environment where your opponent has every intention beating the living snot out of you and putting you in the hospital, then I am going to call BS on the efficacy of sparring, to me the difference between doing drills and sparring is only a matter of degree of compliance. Even in the celebrated man-up-stand-up videos, the fighters are not fighting to seriously injure the other.
I know for a fact that Wing Chun “can” look like Wing Chun in real fighting on many different levels. Structure, “sticking”, trapping, timing, distance…the whole nine yards. This isn’t boasting, just pointing out that I have seen and experienced it first hand.
Sport fighting does not blend with WC strategy and principles very well. There are many contraindications to the system. For example, I have a buddy who I spar with every now and then. I’ll play the game with him, attack/withdrawal, because my goal isn’t to really hurt him. But every now and then he gets out of hand. In those situations I usually don’t withdrawal and end up hurting him because I’ll explode into him the way you’re supposed to with WC. Sport fighting is playing a game that is not your game, and the irony of it is that while people say that they’re pressure testing, it’s very obvious they’re trying to avoid getting hit. WC doesn’t work that way. If you withdrawal on your own without your opponent moving you back for you, you’re playing their game, not yours.
Just look at nature to see how animals fight. Almost all of them stay put when fighting and only move back when they are “moved” back…
Most of you will probably think it’s easy for me to say this in words and I understand that. But WC isn’t for everyone and probably should be for far less people than it already is IMO…
[QUOTE=trubblman;1158781]Oh yes one can tell you that it is NOT Wing Chun. If that’s Wing Chun then the World Kickboxing Association is full of Wing Chun practitioners. And BTW if I may I would like to refute one point not made by you but another respondent:granted most Wing Chun, as well as most other martial arts, are practiced with a compliant partner. But even sparring is practicing with a compliant partner because your partner does not have the intent to cream you into smithereens. To me the argument that sparring makes one a better fighter is at best disingenuous. The more realistic you make practice the better it is. But unless you showing me that you are in an environment where your opponent has every intention beating the living snot out of you and putting you in the hospital, then I am going to call BS on the efficacy of sparring, to me the difference between doing drills and sparring is only a matter of degree of compliance. Even in the celebrated man-up-stand-up videos, the fighters are not fighting to seriously injure the other.[/QUOTE]
True depends on how hard you are sparring. But most guys who never spar are going to get their a-s kicked in any fight with a skilled ring fighter.
[QUOTE=WC1277;1158783]I know for a fact that Wing Chun “can” look like Wing Chun in real fighting on many different levels. Structure, “sticking”, trapping, timing, distance…the whole nine yards. This isn’t boasting, just pointing out that I have seen and experienced it first hand.
Sport fighting does not blend with WC strategy and principles very well. There are many contraindications to the system. For example, I have a buddy who I spar with every now and then. I’ll play the game with him, attack/withdrawal, because my goal isn’t to really hurt him. But every now and then he gets out of hand. In those situations I usually don’t withdrawal and end up hurting him because I’ll explode into him the way you’re supposed to with WC. Sport fighting is playing a game that is not your game, and the irony of it is that while people say that they’re pressure testing, it’s very obvious they’re trying to avoid getting hit. WC doesn’t work that way. If you withdrawal on your own without your opponent moving you back for you, you’re playing their game, not yours.
Just look at nature to see how animals fight. Almost all of them stay put when fighting and only move back when they are “moved” back…
Most of you will probably think it’s easy for me to say this in words and I understand that. But WC isn’t for everyone and probably should be for far less people than it already is IMO…[/QUOTE]
Of course sparring has a level of give and take, just like chi sao has. I can play chi sao for hours or finished it in seconds. Sparring is the same, you can spar 5 rounds or you can try to finish them in the first round. That’s a whole different level of pressure which is good to train at times. I chi sao light and hard, I spar light and hard. Its all part of learned and testing yourself its not a winning game. My point is if you don’t do it you can’t really have much to say about it. As you spar you have seen the pros an cons, which is good, thats the point.
I train BJJ and I would not like to be in my back in a real fight, but the BJJ gives me a whole different level of understanding fighting and the ground game. I’ve seen many times what happens to guys that think they can’t be taken down and they would do this or that if it was for real. In fact they do the same - get taken down and tapped out. A choke means your dead. That very real.
[QUOTE=Alan Orr;1158786]True depends on how hard you are sparring. But most guys who never spar are going to get their a-s kicked in any fight with a skilled ring fighter.[/QUOTE]
Glad you said most. That means there are some who will not. But seriously there’s an advantage in sparring but IMO the advantages are not the compliance. The advantages are that sparring can tell your level of conditioning. Techniques dont matter if you are too tired. And most importantly you can work on timing when on sparring.
And the term skilled ring fighter is too broad to really mean anything. John Jones and Manny Pacquaio are skilled ring fighters. So are the the dudes in the WWF. So are the guys in the back alley boxing gym.
One area flaw I see in sparring is no matter what, there is rarely in any inter-martial arts sparring. Its easy for 2 Ving Tsun guys to spar, 2 boxing guys, 2 FMA guys to spar. It’s rare that you see any real cross martial arts sparring ( including MMA which always seems to devolve into boxing, muay thai and grappling, so that no matter what the practitioners mother art is, all MMA fighters look the same.)
[QUOTE=trubblman;1158791]Glad you said most. That means there are some who will not. But seriously there’s an advantage in sparring but IMO the advantages are not the compliance. The advantages are that sparring can tell your level of conditioning. Techniques dont matter if you are too tired. And most importantly you can work on timing when on sparring.
And the term skilled ring fighter is too broad to really mean anything. John Jones and Manny Pacquaio are skilled ring fighters. So are the the dudes in the WWF. So are the guys in the back alley boxing gym.
One area flaw I see in sparring is no matter what, there is rarely in any inter-martial arts sparring. Its easy for 2 Ving Tsun guys to spar, 2 boxing guys, 2 FMA guys to spar. It’s rare that you see any real cross martial arts sparring ( including MMA which always seems to devolve into boxing, muay thai and grappling, so that no matter what the practitioners mother art is, all MMA fighters look the same.)[/QUOTE]
When I say skilled ring fighter - I am of course talking about boxers, thai boxing, mma fighters and of any level. I have seen many times wing chun guys that can’t spar or last pass only 30 seconds when hit hard and put under pressure.
My guys and I spar with guys from many martial art backgrounds. All MMA fighters look different to me. You can see lots of different fighting styles striking styles, grappling styles etc.
Sparring is not real fighting, but it gives the mental pressure to most people that they will never get doing drills alone.
[QUOTE=WC1277;1158783]I know for a fact that Wing Chun “can” look like Wing Chun in real fighting on many different levels. Structure, “sticking”, trapping, timing, distance…the whole nine yards. This isn’t boasting, just pointing out that I have seen and experienced it first hand.
Sport fighting does not blend with WC strategy and principles very well. There are many contraindications to the system. For example, I have a buddy who I spar with every now and then. I’ll play the game with him, attack/withdrawal, because my goal isn’t to really hurt him. But every now and then he gets out of hand. In those situations I usually don’t withdrawal and end up hurting him because I’ll explode into him the way you’re supposed to with WC. Sport fighting is playing a game that is not your game, and the irony of it is that while people say that they’re pressure testing, it’s very obvious they’re trying to avoid getting hit. WC doesn’t work that way. If you withdrawal on your own without your opponent moving you back for you, you’re playing their game, not yours.
Just look at nature to see how animals fight. Almost all of them stay put when fighting and only move back when they are “moved” back…
Most of you will probably think it’s easy for me to say this in words and I understand that. But WC isn’t for everyone and probably should be for far less people than it already is IMO...[/QUOTE]
You are correct. It is far too easy just to be put into words. So where’s your proof? Surely you must have many videos illustrating what you are claiming? Oh wait, I forgot. It is probably to deadly to be filmed. My bad. Well then go back to talking. Because we all know talking is a much better training method than sparring with pressure…
[QUOTE=Jake104;1158811]You are correct. It is far too easy just to be put into words. So where’s your proof? Surely you must have many videos illustrating what you are claiming? Oh wait, I forgot. It is probably to deadly to be filmed. My bad. Well then go back to talking. Because we all know talking is a much better training method than sparring with pressure…[/QUOTE]
Because surely the writer has to show you a video to convince YOU.
[QUOTE=WC1277;1158783]I know for a fact that Wing Chun “can” look like Wing Chun in real fighting on many different levels. Structure, “sticking”, trapping, timing, distance…the whole nine yards. This isn’t boasting, just pointing out that I have seen and experienced it first hand. . . [/QUOTE]
Can you direct us to where you have seen Wing Chun look like Wing Chun in a real fight?
I know our fighters do the best they can against resisting opponents. We even have a fighter who pulled off a trap and knockout if a fight. But I’d like to see what you were referring to. Also, have you ever competed?
[QUOTE=Jake104;1158818]So why you butting in then tough guy?[/QUOTE]
This is a forum. By definition a forum is a meeting place where people go to discuss things. It is not a private conversation. Therefore I am not butting in. There is a method to send private messages if that is your intent.
[QUOTE=trubblman;1158819]This is a forum. By definition a forum is a meeting place where people go to discuss things. It is not a private conversation. Therefore I am not butting in. There is a method to send private messages if that is your intent.[/QUOTE]
My mistake it sounded as if you wanted to meet up with me and maybe catch a quick lunch or maybe a movie. Since you were so interested in where I live . Even know it’s clearly seen in the upper right hand corner of my posts. My apologies for the misunderstanding . But if you are ever out in my neck of the woods . Please contact me ahead of time so I can see what is playing at my local Harkins. Thank you and have a great day
