Cross Training?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
101

Any average MMA guy that i have gone with had very unimpressive body structure comparatively, unless he was a college wrestler previously.

most have some background in another system. Of course you have your average joe, but I’m speaking of quick results. every system has holes, IMO, or they focus to much on specific things and don’t look at fighting as the chaotic thing that it is. Spending enough time learning something seems to be the problem with people these days. They want the quick results and I cannot blame them, but if you want that higher level and higher understanding you have to put in the time.

102

Boxing has tons of holes in it for street fighting, but, like others said, it is one of the best choices to learn to fight quickly.

The fact that you don’t have to learn throws, takedowns and skilled take down defense, as in grappling arts, or kicks, lets you get good at the basics very quickly. Boxing has great footwork and the best “boxing hands” out there. You will begin learn to move and hit immediately.

The original posts was about learning to defend oneself quickly, not being a complete fighter. MMA, Sanda and Muay Thai are all far more complete, but because of the different elements they incorporate, becoming proficient takes a bit longer; unless as Dragonbane said, you already have a solid base in something else.

Even Muay Thai, which can be learned quite quickly, wouldn’t be as good a choice for readily learning to defend oneself, since it does take a while to be proficient at kicking techniques, if you’ve never trained a kicking art. Kicks will be a liability until you really develop them. If you had to choose between just striking or wrestling, to learn in a short period of time, I’d go with striking, since you may not have enough conditioning and mental toughness at that point to just eat the punch and go for the take down.

103

[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1274212]Boxing has tons of holes in it for street fighting, but, like others said, it is one of the best choices to learn to fight quickly.

The fact that you don’t have to learn throws, takedowns and skilled take down defense, as in grappling arts, or kicks, lets you get good at the basics very quickly. Boxing has great footwork and the best “boxing hands” out there. You will begin learn to move and hit immediately.

The original posts was about learning to defend oneself quickly, not being a complete fighter. MMA, Sanda and Muay Thai are all far more complete, but because of the different elements they incorporate, becoming proficient takes a bit longer; unless as Dragonbane said, you already have a solid base in something else.

Even Muay Thai, which can be learned quite quickly, wouldn’t be as good a choice for readily learning to defend oneself, since it does take a while to be proficient at kicking techniques, if you’ve never trained a kicking art. Kicks will be a liability until you really develop them. If you had to choose between just striking or wrestling, to learn in a short period of time, I’d go with striking, since you may not have enough conditioning and mental toughness at that point to just eat the punch and go for the take down.[/QUOTE]

I’m beginning to like you again… maybe I’ll call off the death feud, but I won’t recall the assassin trannys! BWAHAHAHA!

104

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1273956]
The point being that for quick development of fighting skills boxing is far better suited than most MA because:
It is hands on right away.
You are hitting and sparring right away.
You actually hit something every training session.
You are focusing only on a few techniques and using gross motor skills.
You are not wasting time on indirect training drills.[/QUOTE]

You also learn to take hits and still fight back! Real life is not like the movies, you can take a lot of punishment and still fight back effectively.

105

[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1274212]
Even Muay Thai, which can be learned quite quickly, wouldn’t be as good a choice for readily learning to defend oneself, since it does take a while to be proficient at kicking techniques, if you’ve never trained a kicking art. Kicks will be a liability until you really develop them. If you had to choose between just striking or wrestling, to learn in a short period of time, I’d go with striking, since you may not have enough conditioning and mental toughness at that point to just eat the punch and go for the take down.[/QUOTE]

Agreed on all points.
I do find that Shuai Chiao has an answer for a striker, even in that short a period of time, and taking someone off their feet eliminates their striking, and makes them reconsider whether it’s worth attacking again. Taking time to learn how to strike doesn’t answer tackles. It’s been my personal experience, and from a number of L.E. Stories and reports i’ve heard that if you are going to get assaulted or abducted or raped, the attackers more often use tackles before strikes than begin with striking.

I agree boxing is a really quick path to practical fistfighting. In fact, going straight to sparring with your coach while he tells you what you should be doing differently is a great way to make a fist fighter. Learning from a bare knuckle boxer / pugilist is even better for that, in my opinion, if you can even find one. But that still has no answer to tackles. I don’t think bjj is a good answer for tackles either. And even with my wrestling background, i wouldn’t have him study wrestling at all.
But i think shuai chiao, as a traditional CMA can yield a well defended individual for the streets quickly.

Am i wrong about the importance of strong body structure for situations where ambush tackles are a regular thing?

106

[QUOTE=Pipefighter;1274276]Am i wrong about the importance of strong body structure for situations where ambush tackles are a regular thing?[/QUOTE]

just do this:
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/violent-new-sport-brings-street-fighting-into-the-ring/story-fnk1w5xx-1227000553368?nk=dd70e160e1032929513d59d59a986b16

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[QUOTE=Pipefighter;1274276]
Am i wrong about the importance of strong body structure for situations where ambush tackles are a regular thing?[/QUOTE]

you are right. a true warrior crab around town in full siping da ma stance, ready to face ten thousand enemies. then he is invulnerable to surprise ambush tackle.

108

[QUOTE=MightyB;1274286]just do this:
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/violent-new-sport-brings-street-fighting-into-the-ring/story-fnk1w5xx-1227000553368?nk=dd70e160e1032929513d59d59a986b16[/QUOTE]

I’m working on it…

And who said posturing up all day bawang? But i would pay to see you crab walk down the street! I dont think anybody would mess with you. Or your mom.

109

[QUOTE=Pipefighter;1274276]
Am i wrong about the importance of strong body structure for situations where ambush tackles are a regular thing?[/QUOTE]

No; and boxing really doesn’t train against that sort of thing so I kind of doubt it would be effective against even a good football tackle.

That being said, I still pick boxing as a good choice because, on the street your most likely to see haymakers and bad tackles. Boxing is well equipped to deal with a haymaker; and I think good footwork can save you from a sloppy tackle, if your on your toes, so to speak.

Now a takedown by a good wrestler, that’s completely different. Boxing won’t save you from that.

Just a numbers game, if we know who we’re going to be fighting, we know how and what we should be training, but since we don’t and we’re just looking for the best chance to defend ourselves quickly, in this scenario, I think western boxing would be the best bet.

110

[QUOTE=MightyB;1274216]I’m beginning to like you again… maybe I’ll call off the death feud, but I won’t recall the assassin trannys! BWAHAHAHA![/QUOTE]

I didn’t realize we had a death feud going, I must be getting forgetful, that’s not good.

I’d hate to be walking down the street and be assaulted by an assassin tranny and not even remember why… :eek:

111

I agree, kellen, that you aren’t likely to get a wrestler tackling you on the street. And most guys who are gonna jump you cant shoot a real double leg like an experienced wrestler.

I thought about this a while and had a discussion with my lil bro over this topic. He is a decently skilled boxer with a decent bare knuckle amature record, pre army. But this is my conclusion after talking to him:

Bad towns are like combat zones. Maybe you dont have to worry about your house being bombed, but if you are not intimidating as a person, you are probably going to run into a lot of the same stuff a soldier would prepare for in close quarters engagements. To avoid unnecessary comparing, lets say the most intimidating armies FROM THE STAND POINT OF HAND TO HAND ONLY, only Only, would be Isreal, Russia, China, and the USA, in No Particular Order!
Since the usa got into the Gracie modern army combatives thing our stats for hand 2 hand success has dropped a lot. Since 2001 most of H2H encounters with US army that involved a knife involved the US soldier being the owner of the knife, and the other guy using it on him. Before that we had a pretty good record of wins for knife involved H2H. Thanks For Nothing Gracie’s!
So if you look at the rest of the list, what are they teaching their guys in basic training before they send them off? Boxing? Any of them training in boxing as the method for H2H? No.

One move common to all of their systems is the throw/trip called the front cut. The US uses it too, but honestly our technique shows a serious lack of understanding on how to apply it. Thanks again Gracies.

I imagine everyone is familiar with SAMBO or can look it up. So thats a throwing based combat form.

Krav Maga as a belted system really confuses the issue for american understanding Israeli hand to hand. Krav maga isnt the technique they use in their training, believe it or not. I can expound if asked. Israelies focus on crashing, tripping, using momentum a lot. They don’t allow anyone to try and maintain striking range and box.

And the Chinese, of course, use Shuai Chiao.

If they all focus on staying on your feet against brutal attack, crashing past striking range, tripping and throwing, and none of them teach boxing as their method for H2H i think that agrees that boxing is not a great method to make a person ready for the mean streets. If you wanna fight your ex bff’s at a pool party and prove you are tough, yeah, punch them out, jab jab cross hook! If you are trying to avoid mugging, murder, and abduction, i don’t think boxing is the best answer.

Shuai chiao has an answer for the striker or the grappler or the wrestler. There is a lot i dont know about all the various CMA’s. I figured this topic would bring some good technique or training strategy from other CMA’s to light.

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[QUOTE=Pipefighter;1274582]If they all focus on staying on your feet against brutal attack, crashing past striking range, tripping and throwing, and none of them teach boxing as their method for H2H i think that agrees that boxing is not a great method to make a person ready for the mean streets. If you wanna fight your ex bff’s at a pool party and prove you are tough, yeah, punch them out, jab jab cross hook! If you are trying to avoid mugging, murder, and abduction, i don’t think boxing is the best answer.[/QUOTE]

I tried to give you a practical answer in the second post on this thread.

[QUOTE=-N-;1273784]Learn to recognize and avoid/defuse hazards. Avoid is the least effort.

Develop a strong spirit that cannot be intimidated. If you can’t avoid, dominate instead of giving up and dieing.

Learn how to handle a gun. Fast way to end a bad situation.

For bonus points, wear body armor.[/QUOTE]

But, as far as staying on your feet, closing and crashing through fast, then takedown, you are talking about Praying Mantis.

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[QUOTE=-N-;1273784]Learn to recognize and avoid/defuse hazards. Avoid is the least effort.

Develop a strong spirit that cannot be intimidated. If you can’t avoid, dominate instead of giving up and dieing.

Learn how to handle a gun. Fast way to end a bad situation.

For bonus points, wear body armor.[/QUOTE]

knowing how to handle a gun is great! I am licensed to carry in 37 states. I still train in kung fu. Hard. Why? A civilian in most places cannot engage another person past about 25 feet without it being a crime. Inside of 21 feet, an officer who is trained and carrying his pistol on an easily accesible hip holster still is likely to be maimed or killed by an attacker without a gun. The gun does not eliminate martial arts training.
If you dont already have a concealed weapons licensee, trying to get one quickly, easily, or cheaply in many states is not possible, and bulletproof vests are expensive and illegal in some places. But the topic of guns in martial arts is a good discussion, i think! The concealed weapons guys bring that stuff up, but often lack understanding of M.A. If you carry concealed, you really should be good in some M.a. since drawing from a holster under your shirt or in your pocket takes longer than drawing from open carry.

The first comments about diffusing and creating warrior spirit is obtuse, and i wasnt sure if you were suggesting self help books or P.C.P. (Angel Dust).

The thread was meant for discussion, not that i am looking for one answer. I think the discussion over boxing is a good one with many valid points all around.

As far as mantis goes, i have never trained it. I could ask my teacher to explain it to me and maybe he would. But since you bring it up, in your experience what would a person be skilled with in the first 6 months of training in the Mantis system you train? This sounds like good discussion also

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[QUOTE=Pipefighter;1274582]MightyB, your sneaky with your after the discussion post editing…
[/QUOTE]

whatch’u talkin’ 'bout? You high? Says on a post if it’s been edited - and I’ll usually put in an explanation. I usually edit if I’m being unusually rude, clarity issues (usually grammatical), or an obvious usage error like using “it’s” instead of “its” :stuck_out_tongue:

Combat SC would be a good art… good luck finding a legitimate instructor. Arts like Boxing and Judo are readily available in most cities. And we’re talking about a time crunch with a 6-month window… The best military h2h in the US seems to be MCMAP. But, all that doesn’t matter - Attitude is what determines survival.

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[QUOTE=Pipefighter;1274607]The first comments about diffusing and creating warrior spirit is obtuse, and i wasnt sure if you were suggesting self help books or P.C.P. (Angel Dust).[/QUOTE]

Different people will respond to different approaches. If they can get it from a book, then fine. But I wouldn’t get my hopes up. If you have concerns about carrying a weapon legally, then you probably won’t have PCP on your list.

I was thinking more in terms of hard abusive physical and mental training for helping the student develop a strong spirit. Sometimes that can help people learn what they have inside themselves.

[QUOTE=Pipefighter;1274607]As far as mantis goes, i have never trained it. I could ask my teacher to explain it to me and maybe he would. But since you bring it up, in your experience what would a person be skilled with in the first 6 months of training in the Mantis system you train? This sounds like good discussion also[/QUOTE]

Yes, your teacher should be able to explain the Praying Mantis approach.

Traditionally though, Praying Mantis was not a system for a complete beginner.

Ability after 6 months, or any other length of time, depends on the individual, what they bring, and what they put in.

I could see someone starting from zero and getting basic kicks, strikes, and conditioning in 6 months.

That may or may not enable a person to protect themselves. That may just give the person enough so that he gets himself into trouble.

What does it mean to protect himself? What is he protecting himself from?

If we are talking about not dying, then avoid and escape. If that’s not possible, then shoot the guy with your gun. If your life is in danger, I don’t think you will care about whether or not you have a valid permit.

If you think in TCMA terms of guts, then strength, then skill, why spend 6 months working on skill?

A .45 hollow point is stronger and faster than any kung fu. Then do you have the guts to use it?

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Cross-Training Kung Fu and other arts

Anyone have any thoughts and experience with cross-training different disciplines.

Where I am living in Urumqi, China, there is alot of BJJ, Taekwondo, and some Wing Chun.

Do people see benefits/drawbacks to practicing something like Kung Fu and another martial art?

Just curious:)