1 running
2 short staff fighting basics
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Western Boxing.
[QUOTE=Pipefighter;1273771](fill in whatever horrible place, inner Detroit, Bronx, French quarter, etc…[/QUOTE]
there is no defence possible against the chocolate peoples. embrace the bbc.
Join IDPA, practice tactical shooting and go to matches weekly. Kali-Arnis would be a good one stop shop for training knives, sticks, striking, locks and ground fighting. If possible I’d suggest also working on some BJJ to enhance the ground game with the focus on getting back up and or ending things on the ground very quickly. Work on multi-man scenarios as much as possible.
Better yet, don’t move to a shithole 
[QUOTE=GoldenBrain;1273868]
Better yet, don’t move to a shithole ;)[/QUOTE]
Lol
Some of us dont/didnt have that option
Regarding bjj as a good idea to use for street fighting… Yes i know that would be a hot issue, and i only want to comment on that at the moment by shedding light on the modern army combatives intent (who do use gracie bjj in their program)
Those who have been in the army recently may recall some of the timing they teach, in particular to this point “you are never more than 3 minuts away from support”
The combatives instructors that i know, work with, and have rolled with a bit explain to me that the ultimate goal of modern army combatives is to survive for 3 min. When you think about it from that perspective, gracie bjj makes a lot of sense. Ending up on the ground, locking up one guy and holding him over you as a human shield while a group of stick and rock wielding guys are trying to stomp you to death makes a lot of sense really if you can count on your homies with superior weapons rolling in asap.
But in the streets you really cant expect that anyone is going to help you. Loot your corpse, dress up your corpse, or do strange things… Have all happened in some of my old neighborhoods.
Mighty b, i’m curious on western Bixing? Not arguing, just curious about your specific reasoning?
[QUOTE=Pipefighter;1273900]Lol
Some of us dont/didnt have that option[/QUOTE]
I’m sure you realize that I said that with tongue in cheek. When not joking around I would say “if possible.”
I agree with what you said about BJJ. I only mention it because it’s a good ground grappling system and kind of a fad right now. Studying it gives at the very least a perspective of what is most likely going to be attempted on you while on the ground. Still, I’d go with Kali-Arnis first. It has a good grappling system that deals with using/disarming weapons, especially knives. BJJ just doesn’t touch on that stuff. I’ve never practiced rolling in BJJ with blades, but I have in Kali training.
[QUOTE=Pipefighter;1273900]Mighty b, i’m curious on western Bixing? Not arguing, just curious about your specific reasoning?[/QUOTE]
IMO, it’s the only MA that you can become reasonably proficient to be able to defend yourself with a 6 month time limit (as long as you have a decent base and can defend against a simple takedown). Boxing gives you good footwork, great hands, and you learn to protect your head. If the idea is to stay on your feet while staying mobile, defending when necessary, and getting the f*** out as soon as you can, then IMO boxing will be the best for you.
Gino Sifu posted this on facebook, but it goes along with my suggestion of why western boxing would be the best thing you could learn to defend yourself in that six-month window. Listen to the whole thing but especially to what he says starting at the 4:50 mark of the video.
I agree, if you want to be able to defend yourself in the quickest time possible, western boxing is the way to go.
You learn to move, to defend to hit and you experience being hit, all sooner rather than later.
The edge it has over something like kickboxing or muay Thai is the because it focuses only on the hands, the issue of coordination is less than with kickboxing.
Years ago I did the experiment of putting 2 people with NO MA experience doing two different MA.
1 went into boxing and the other into TKD, 3 days a week.
After 3 months the boxer could actually fight and he punched well and moved well enough and defend well.
The TKD guy was still working on his kicks and couldn’t really punch very good ( But still better then before of course).
The point being that for quick development of fighting skills boxing is far better suited than most MA because:
It is hands on right away.
You are hitting and sparring right away.
You actually hit something every training session.
You are focusing only on a few techniques and using gross motor skills.
You are not wasting time on indirect training drills.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1273954]Gino Sifu posted this on facebook, but it goes along with my suggestion of why western boxing would be the best thing you could learn to defend yourself in that six-month window. Listen to the whole thing but especially to what he says starting at the 4:50 mark of the video.
//youtu.be/KwF30Szln-A
[/QUOTE]
Geoff is one of the good ones in the RBSD world.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1273956]I agree, if you want to be able to defend yourself in the quickest time possible, western boxing is the way to go.
You learn to move, to defend to hit and you experience being hit, all sooner rather than later.
The edge it has over something like kickboxing or muay Thai is the because it focuses only on the hands, the issue of coordination is less than with kickboxing.
Years ago I did the experiment of putting 2 people with NO MA experience doing two different MA.
1 went into boxing and the other into TKD, 3 days a week.
After 3 months the boxer could actually fight and he punched well and moved well enough and defend well.
The TKD guy was still working on his kicks and couldn’t really punch very good ( But still better then before of course).
The point being that for quick development of fighting skills boxing is far better suited than most MA because:
It is hands on right away.
You are hitting and sparring right away.
You actually hit something every training session.
You are focusing only on a few techniques and using gross motor skills.
You are not wasting time on indirect training drills.[/QUOTE]
Well said - this is a great explanation and it’s exactly what I was thinking when I suggested western boxing.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1273964]Well said - this is a great explanation and it’s exactly what I was thinking when I suggested western boxing.[/QUOTE]
Thanks.
See, boxing is a prime example ( and MT too of course) of how that old view in TMA, of not putting students sparring and hitting right away because it may “compromise their skill” is BS.
You learn by DOING and the close what you do is to what you MUST do, the better.
In short, you learn to fight well by fighting as soon and as often as you can because you develop the skills in the right way under the right circumstances.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1273966]Thanks.
See, boxing is a prime example ( and MT too of course) of how that old view in TMA, of not putting students sparring and hitting right away because it may “compromise their skill” is BS.
You learn by DOING and the close what you do is to what you MUST do, the better.
In short, you learn to fight well by fighting as soon and as often as you can because you develop the skills in the right way under the right circumstances.[/QUOTE]
Yup - drilling, fighting, sparring should be common in any school of good repute. That allows a person to find “their” way. That’s one thing I really liked about Judo and Jiu Jitsu. You’d learn the text book way, everyone had to, but the instructors encouraged you to find your own way for practical application.
[QUOTE=GoldenBrain;1273903]I’m sure you realize that I said that with tongue in cheek. When not joking around I would say “if possible.”
I agree with what you said about BJJ. I only mention it because it’s a good ground grappling system and kind of a fad right now. Studying it gives at the very least a perspective of what is most likely going to be attempted on you while on the ground. Still, I’d go with Kali-Arnis first. It has a good grappling system that deals with using/disarming weapons, especially knives. BJJ just doesn’t touch on that stuff. I’ve never practiced rolling in BJJ with blades, but I have in Kali training.[/QUOTE]
YeAh i did catch the levity. I have never done ground grappling with training knives either, nor found a local dog brothers shop to try it. I would personally take escrima to bjj training for the streets, even though escrima takes longer to be good at than bjj, and bjj is quckly learned and applied.
Regarding the western boxing thing, i gotcha about quick development of skills that can be used at the speed of a fight. But what about tailoring some specific parts of CMA’s to build a guy up to defend himself in that period of time? I think boxing is a better alternative to MT or TKD since my experience with kicks is that they arent very useful in real street fights.
That said, when my brother was stationed in VIrginia, he went for a walk one night and got jumped by three guys. The guy in the middle did what typically occours in muggings or assaults, he bum rushed with a tackle. My lil bro was a young state champ wrestler, kicked out of army combatives tourney’s for being to violent, and trained in arnis and was carrying a knife. He didnt have time to grab his knife, he didnt sprawl, he snap kicked the guy in the chest as he lunged in for a double leg tackle. That ended the situation as his friends tried to resuscitate. So i know every once and a while kicking can work on a fight. It just never has for me, or on me in the street.
But! On Kung Fu Forums, western boxing is really the best suggestion? JKD does sparring from day one, and so does Shuai Chiao. One answer boxing does not have is structure. Most street situations i have ever experienced involve tackles, either initially, or gradually. I dont think boxing can develop full body structure that can withstand a shoulder check, or a jumping opponent. Can’t CMA’s be taught in a way that a person who starts training will be able to defend themselves within 6 months and then progress from there into gradual mastery?
And is punching a better defense than developing mobile structure over the same short timeline? How many punches can you whip out when a guy is charging you? 2 before he is wrapped around you?
See, boxing is a prime example ( and MT too of course) of how that old view in TMA, of not putting students sparring and hitting right away because it may “compromise their skill” is BS.
You learn by DOING and the close what you do is to what you MUST do, the better.
In short, you learn to fight well by fighting as soon and as often as you can because you develop the skills in the right way under the right circumstances.
Damit SR, again with the truth…good sir you overstep your bounds.
I think any MA that incorporates a blend of clinch, ground, and striking used in a resistant environment would be good. people on here (some) seem to think MMA the bane of existence in the MA’s world, when in honesty you get right up front results that can be applied with little teaching and to great effect.
[QUOTE=Pipefighter;1274152]
Can’t CMA’s be taught in a way that a person who starts training will be able to defend themselves within 6 months and then progress from there into gradual mastery?
[/QUOTE]
Of course they can. I don’t understand why people are so opposed to it.
After studying JkD for a while i thought that was the ultimate way to bring an average guy to a competent street fighter level quickly. Learning a base of MT, American kickboxing, western boxing, a couple throws, some ground finishes. In 6 months of that i’ve seen your average guy become a good counter punching, perrying, dancing fighter. But looking back i realize that i already had a solid structure when i started. I find now that structure is lacking in the early stages of JKD. If i wanted to rush past other fighters with under 2 yrs of training it was very easy to bring them off their feet. They didnt have good body structure.
I think especially for the street application, body structure is essential. Being able to whether the storm of blows for the first 30 seconds is really important, and JKD tries to address that, and does with striking and blocking. Shuai chiao has a very different approach. What if you dont spend time on striking in your first 6 months, but spend all your time on taking a striking situation and turnng it into a shuai chiao situation?
Check out the Rhino strategy on this page
https://www.facebook.com/CombatShuaiChiao
That is a beginner level drill. If a guy worked on protecting his head like this, and worked on trips and off balancing for 6 mo’s as a part of practice, and sparred using this strategy, i think he would have a stronger base and feel comfortable about closing range when it suited him and ending the striking game, than compared to training in striking for 6 months. There is more to address, of course, than striking. But having a strong structure can help prevent things from going to the ground so easily.
My problem with training MMA as a street answer is in the little moments you don’t think about. You learn how to find places to take a moments rest. You dont think about it in practice, but you are learning comfort zones that aren’t there in a street situation. You learn body placement on the ground that doesn’t take into account throat grabbing, eye gouging, ball grabbing, head butting, knife hand control. The more fluid you become at mma or western wrestling, the less you are aware of how much your leaving these targets open. The first purple belt i tapped, which was my second class of bjj was with a “rapist choke”, haha. I was in his guard and grabbed him by his trachea. He was really ****ed. And he didnt tap easily. I had to use my kung fu grip. I had no idea that was illegal. Honest. I thought it was martial, not sport.
After rolling for a couple years and then scrapping with some army guys who were going No Rules rolling, i realized i was leaving a ton of targets open that i had completely forgotten about. in my experience MMA will yield a competent fighter quickly in a fair fight, but there are a ton of holes in MMA as it relates to the street. But you will never find that out by sparring in an MMA room. You will only reinforce your opinions of your self. MMA is no more immune to that problem than bagua. I have only encountered a small handfull of MMA guys who had the body structure of a shuai chiao guy, and they are currently competing in the UFC, and some of the other pro leagues. Any average MMA guy that i have gone with had very unimpressive body structure comparatively, unless he was a college wrestler previously.
[QUOTE=SPJ;1273796]1 running
2 short staff fighting basics
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:)[/QUOTE]
I think there is a lot of sense to this approach. The french soldiers who watched the indians do this named it Lacrosse.
If it were my friend i would have him train shuai chiao for aggressive maneuvers and striking response, and lacrosse to build cardio, running speed, and increase body structure and anticipate weapon movement in a fun and competitive environment.
The more i understand traditional SC moves, the more i see how they could be used while running. Incorporate a shoulder check into a single leg, hit a front cut at full stride, headlock a charging attacker. Even western wrestling at high levels doesn’t create that kind of momentum.
And i’d take him to an Israeli SEMINAR for knife defense. Not an americanized krav class. Some Israeli soldiers who offer seminars. It seems really hard to develop an effective knife disarm in 6 months from all angles. The israeli’s have a one motion answer to knife attacks that can be learned fast. I wouldn’t get more sophisticated with a knife than that
[QUOTE=Pipefighter;1274178]The more i understand traditional SC moves, the more i see how they could be used while running. Incorporate a shoulder check into a single leg, hit a front cut at full stride, headlock a charging attacker. Even western wrestling at high levels doesn’t create that kind of momentum.[/QUOTE]
This is fundamental to kung fu.
Though a lot of people never get to this point.