Gotta admit to all you water-pushers - I felt pretty dehydrated yesterday and today. Drank lots of water. The sort of dehydrated that you might feel after taking antihistamines, for example. On Friday night I managed to close the #2 CoC for 4 reps in the right hand - my previous PR was 3. I should’ve kept going for that set, but I’d already done my left and my right’s stronger anyway so I stopped after 4.
:eek: 
Whoah.
There are already studies done over 5 year periods. That’s not especially long term in life duration, but as no one has died of heat stroke during that time plus, then it’s not true to say that dying that way is a real possibility. It’s never happened yet, over many years of creatine use, therefore it’s an outside possibility at best.
I was not at all trying to be condescending when I suggested that you look into the uses of water in your body. It gives you a good picture of how things work and how water is so necessary. If you are telling Toby that water is just necessary for the cells to filter out their garbage, then I say there are more things that water helps with. It is not an issue of intelligence vs stupidity,it is more about becoming a better informed consumer. Addititonally when you understand its uses, you will understand the potential dangers when inadequate amounts of water is present. You really should not need a study for the knowledge you have gained.
I know this, but it’s not especially relevant to the main point. As far as I’m concerned, Toby should be drinking a lot more water anyway, creatine or not.
My main issue with creatine is the result of cell voluminization as a result of its use. Water is pulled into the cell expanding its size. This is water that is used for removing wastes from the body as well as maintaining body temperature. Now you have less of it to do those functions. If you are working out intensely, you will need to hydrate yourself more than usual. If you don’t, your body will heat up. If you are not perspiring while doing a protracted period of intense exercise, you should be concerned.
Indeed. Where are the stories of creatine users not sweating?
When it comes to studies, the manufacturers depend largely on the ignorance of the consumer and tend to spoon feed them the info that they want to hear. It was done with steroids, andro, and with creatine.
/snip/
Mo Lung, if you want a study, it will not happen. There is no money in it for the corporations.
Of course. But I presume that someone such as yourself has the ability to seek out independent studies. No one with an ounce of sense would trust a study in any way connected to the corporations involved, in competition or otherwise.
I drink lots of liquids (i.e. milk and tea) just not much water.
I’m a sweaty bastidge anyway. I haven’t stopped in the last few days. I’m typing this 5min after HIIT on the rowing ergo and I’m sweating right now.
See above! Face it, ya juicing hippy - you need more water! 
I’m a sweaty bastidge anyway. I haven’t stopped in the last few days. I’m typing this 5min after HIIT on the rowing ergo and I’m sweating right now.
Yeah, I’m sure you are. Still, I’m sure mickey will supply us with some evidence of his claims. He wouldn’t just be making all this stuff up, huh.
Mo Lung,
I never said that creatine users do not sweat! Jeesh!!!
Between my last post and today’s, I thought a lot about our polite exchanges and I really do mean polite. I have seen so much worse at this forum. That being said, you have my greatest respect.
The issues that I raise are not those gleaned from studies; but from knowledge applied. I actively engage things with the knowledge that I gained and realize the potential dangers. I did use the terms risks and danger. That does not mean that it will definitely happen; simply, there is a risk and a danger. Some things are certain between us: we assess things differently and we use our knowledge differently. That will not keep me from interacting with you respectfully in the future. Nor will it send me to my pillow in tears. You want a study. I wish I could produce some. For me the ramifications of using creatine easy to see. I erred horribly in thinking that others would easily understand it.
By the way, creatine has been around a lot longer than that 5 year study that you mention. Again, the current users are its guinea pigs.
Question: Are you selling this stuff???
Toby already spoke about feeling dehydrated. Yes, you agree that he does need more water. With creatine even more so.
You want facts based on studies, etc. Take the time to learn how your body works. Don’t be so lazy (not said with anger, but with sincere caring-- we are martial arts brothers and sisters here). Look at it as part of your kung fu training. I dare not say that have learned all that there is. I am just a student on the road who cares.
If you need to discount my statements because of the lack of scientific data. So be it. I am at peace with it.
Yours Respectfully,
mickey
P.S.: You are most welcome to have the very last word. Now, that is condescending!
Mo Lung,
Before you get in that last word.
This is not a study, but an experience:
http://www.nutritionalsupplements.com/workgnc.html
Check out this one: pay attention to the words “heat intolerance”
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/creatine.html
For every good experience, there is a bad one. To be fair, here is a short term study:
http://druginfo.onu.edu/herbals/creatine.html
What about the deaths of those young wrestlers from dehydration and hyperthermia? It was quickly stated that creatine was not the culprit. Why Mo Lung?
THERE IS TOO MUCH FREAKIN’ MONEY TO BE MADE HERE!!!
I did not draw my conclusions from their deaths, I saw the risks and the dangers.
And no, I am no oracle.
Peace Brother,
mickey
Thanks. Likewise.
The issues that I raise are not those gleaned from studies; but from knowledge applied. I actively engage things with the knowledge that I gained and realize the potential dangers. I did use the terms risks and danger. That does not mean that it will definitely happen; simply, there is a risk and a danger.
What you actually said was that it was a very real possibility, but there is nothing to back up this assumption on your part.
Some things are certain between us: we assess things differently and we use our knowledge differently. That will not keep me from interacting with you respectfully in the future. Nor will it send me to my pillow in tears. You want a study. I wish I could produce some. For me the ramifications of using creatine easy to see. I erred horribly in thinking that others would easily understand it.
That’s because you think these things are easy to see, yet they have never been seen. You are making assumptions with no verifiable evidence. Surely you can see that’s not very credible?
By the way, creatine has been around a lot longer than that 5 year study that you mention.
I know. I was erring on the side of caution for the benefit of argument.
Again, the current users are its guinea pigs.
To a degree, yes. But we’d never do anything without some kind fo experiment. You do know that creatine is naturally accurring, right?
Question: Are you selling this stuff???
If you took the time to read my posts properly you would know that I don’t even advocate using it. I’m against any supplements in the most part. Due to my work/training load I have used it in the past, I may use it again. I used it to inform myself firsthand about it as that’s part of my job.
Toby already spoke about feeling dehydrated. Yes, you agree that he does need more water. With creatine even more so.
Agreed. But he needs more water anyway, which was my point.
You want facts based on studies, etc. Take the time to learn how your body works. Don’t be so lazy (not said with anger, but with sincere caring-- we are martial arts brothers and sisters here). Look at it as part of your kung fu training. I dare not say that have learned all that there is. I am just a student on the road who cares.
Have a look at my sig and see what I do for a living. I know plenty about how the body works and I continually strive to learn more as I know there’s an awful lot more for me to learn. And you wonder why I call you condescending?
If you need to discount my statements because of the lack of scientific data. So be it. I am at peace with it.
Good for you. However, I know that people are clouded by their preconceptions and psychological and psychosomatic tendencies greatly affect what people think. Also, preconceptions play a large role. That’s the beauty of the independent study. It is unbiased, has control groups and is as good a realistic method of learning as we can have. You can theorise all you like based on your assumptions, but I’d believe a professional team of unbiased scientists that base their opinions in considerable empirical experimentation over your singular assumptions every time.
P.S.: You are most welcome to have the very last word. Now, that is condescending!
No more so than the rest of your posts.
There’s not really anything here to back up your arguments, mickey. Heat intolerance is mentioned, but not death by heat stroke and these are anecdotal studies.
I agree with you that there is not enough long term study done here and until there is we will never know for sure. However, there is no evidence to back up your level of scaremongering. And I reiterate - I’m not really in favour of supplements anyway, but people will use them, so it’s responsible to give them the universally approved advice, not your own agenda.
What about the deaths of those young wrestlers from dehydration and hyperthermia? It was quickly stated that creatine was not the culprit. Why Mo Lung?
THERE IS TOO MUCH FREAKIN’ MONEY TO BE MADE HERE!!!
I did not draw my conclusions from their deaths, I saw the risks and the dangers.
And no, I am no oracle.
Peace Brother,
mickey
What deaths are these?
Hi Mo Lung,
If dehydration is not addressed, hyperthermia (heatstroke) will develop. And that can kill.
By the way, I do not scaremonger.
A few years ago there were a few wrestlers who died from dehydration and heatstroke. Creatine was implicated. I have been looking for the article for you but the person at this site makes mention of it:
http://www.nucare.com/noname4.html
When the news of these guys deaths hit the stands there was serious panic about creatine use. The funny thing is that the back page of the newspaper in my area had in bold printing on the back page (this was within a week after the deaths were reported): Creatine is Safe.
It does not end here. Shortly after those guys died (I’d say within eight months) there were two deaths of high school football players who died from heatstroke. Different teams. Different parts of the country. What was strange about it was that they were not playing in extremely hot weather. This was reported once in the media. Their deaths were treated as a mystery. And there was no follow up. It was practically ignored. And since it was stated in the media that creatine is safe, creatine was not even considered a contributing factor.
Check this out. Here is someone who is saying the same thing that I am saying:
http://www.personalhealthzone.com/herbal_medicine/side_effects/creatine_side_effects.html
mickey
If creatine prevented you from sweating I would use it 365 days a year.
All the food I have to eat to maintain my weight, much less gain any weight, makes me a big sweaty mess. If there was a way to prevent that I would be all over it.
Thanks for the commercial break IronFist.
Much needed.
mickey
Dude, have you actually read this article you linked? Here, I’ll snip a few quotes from it for you:
Creatine Supplement Use Not New
While creatine is “new” to many here in the U.S., it is not “new” to the rest of the world. The Russians and other Eastern Block countries have used creatine as a sport supplement for at least twenty years. Perhaps this helps explain why the Eastern Block countries beat the West so badly for many years in the Olympics. Recently, I spoke to a Russian Sports scientist who candidly told me that the Russians never found any injurious effects while using creatine.
Creatine Use In the United States
In the West creatine has been manufactured for about nine years. Creatine was first used by successfully in the West in the 1992 Olympics. As creatine began to be readily available in the United States many bodybuilders began taking creatine in massive amounts. Thinking that if a little is good, more must be better they took twenty, forty, and even sixty grams of powder a day, all without injurious effect on their health. If creatine were dangerous, these human “guinea pigs” would have clearly demonstrated these effects over the past nine years.
On the deaths of the wrestlers:
This is what I found. Only one of the three wrestlers had ever used creatine. That wrestler stopped using creatine several weeks before his death. By the time of his death creatine his muscle creatine levels would have returned back to normal levels and therefore creatine could not be implicated in his death. Two of the three died of severe dehydration and heat injury. The third probably died of an undiagnosed heart problem. In conclusion I could find no relationship between creatine supplementation and these wrestlers deaths. Since then, more than three years later, I have found no reason to change my mind. No local, state or U.S. government report has implicated creatine in any of the deaths.
The lesson we should learn from these deaths is that using severe dehydration to pull weight not only severely limits wrestling performance but can be extremely dangerous. It killed not only these wrestlers, but may have killed others who did not gain media attention. In the course of my investigation, I learned from wrestling insiders of many other “near death experiences” from dehydration that required medical resuscitation.
Physicians Using Creatine Have Found No Creatine Toxicity
And here’s a non-biased opinion:
The American College of Sports Medicine hosted a roundtable discussion by several top scientists interested in creatine. They reported in their abstract that “there is no definitive evidence that creatine supplementation causes gastrointestinal, renal, and/or muscle cramping complications.” 2
Summary
Despite all the rumor and speculation that we all have heard over the past few years, I find no credible evidence that creatine supplementation is harmful in anyway to our 1. Clin J. Sport Med., 1999, Jul. v. 9, (3), p. 167-169 2. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 2000 Mar; 32 (3): p. 706-17health. On the contrary, an ample amount of creatine is absolutely necessary for healthy muscle and other cellular function.
Not really the best link you could have made to support your assumptions.
Check this out. Here is someone who is saying the same thing that I am saying:
http://www.personalhealthzone.com/herbal_medicine/side_effects/creatine_side_effects.html
mickey
And this linked has a couple of mentions all qualified with “may” and “possibly”, etc. with no data at all to back up the claims. You’re right - they are saying exactly what you are saying: Assumptions without any evidence.
I’m tired of this discussion. You hold your views zealously and that’s your prerogative. I’m not going to try to change your mind and you have no chance of changing mine, so let’s just agree to disagree, ok?
As for anyone else that wants to know about creatine, I’m sure this thread will tell them everything they need to know!
Hello Mo Lung,
I posted those links to see how you would view it. Some people take things as is; others look beyond what is being said.
The wrestlers dying form dehydration and heat injury-- that is a possible complication from taking creatine. The study completely divorces the complications from the intake of creatine, just as you have stated yourself in so many words. Now if all that they were saying was true, there would be absolutely NO NEED to supplement extra water because of creatine because there is no risk of dehydration or heat injury (hyperthermia). NO RISK AT ALL. Part of the reason you do not see that is because you do not have a partial handle on how the body works; specifically, when it comes to its need for water. I knew you would jump on that article and it is not funny. It is sad. One should always consider the motivation of any study as well as who is financing it. And even if it is the best conducted study in the world, it should not take the place of your own thinking. If anything, it should facillitate it.
If anything, Mo Lung, I have learned that you are a follower. You have no initiative to interact with things with your knowledge base. You want it done for you. If steroids came out on the market for the first time today, you would wait for a study to say that the stuff was dangerous. Until then, you would have nothing to say about it pro or con.
One thing that I did notice was that you did not try to reduce the link that pretty much echoed what I was saying all along to some kind of psychological rambling. Gee, I wonder why. Oh Yes, oh yes. I see why now. The information was referenced. You would have to run away from this thread now. Wear your best shoes.
Take Care,
mickey
P.S.:
I guess I should wait for the study that confirms that dehydration, left unchecked, can develop into hyperthermia. And I should wait for the other study that confirms that hyperthermia can be fatal.
If anything, Mo Lung, I have learned that you are a follower. You have no initiative to interact with things with your knowledge base. You want it done for you.
Whatever you think, mickey. I’m the one that’s actually used creatine to see firsthand what happens. You didn’t.
I’m the one that wants to verify my own conclusions with what other people, professionals with better knowledge and experience than me, have to say. You don’t.
I’m prepared to learn from the experience of myself and others. You’re not. You just stick to your preconceived assumptions in the face of all other evidence.
I think it’s quite clear where we both stand on this subject and anyone else can draw their own conclusions. I won’t be posting again on this thread. It’s pointless.
Just be careful of dehydration anyway.
You’re certaintly not immune to dehydration if you’re not using creatine.
Gosh,
I approach things with a preconceived notion? I took the time to read about this product when it first hit the market. I also thought it was safe for a short moment.
Peace Brother Mo Lung. Nice talking with you.
IronFist,
You are starting to sound like a moderator. You can head the training forum. You are here 72/7.
mickey
Man, I could get a lot done if I had a 72/7 week!
Would you prefer I go back to the “no, you’re wrong, idiot!” type of posts?
IronFist,
If you did that, you would definitely have to become a moderator. I’d be the first to vote for you.
mickey
Wrong, idiot!
GOSH!