Good examples here.
[video=youtube_share;J0mUVY9fLlw]http://youtu.be/J0mUVY9fLlw[/video]
2 man forms were originally done to develop counters and counter to counters BUT they were limited, typically, to one of 2 maybe 3 moves because practicality was crucial.
When performance took over it became, well, a performance.
Some of the old koryu systems like the Yagyu Shinkage ryu and the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu use 2 man forms as a huge part of their training and they are a long sequence of moves ( to build stamina) BUT the moves are “broken up” as mini-sequences and they tend to be very practical ( for their intended purpose).
Greetings,
I remember seeing a demo that featured a weapons contact done with intent. After the first section, the Sifu noticed that they weren’t going light for the demo and said, “If you want to kill each other, then kill each other!”, adding to the drama. The participants made through it to the end with no injuries and one broken weapon. The silence of the audience suggested that this was not what they were used to seeing. I knew both guys and that was how they trained.
mickey
[QUOTE=mickey;1280250]Greetings,
I remember seeing a demo that featured a weapons contact done with intent. After the first section, the Sifu noticed that they weren’t going light for the demo and said, “If you want to kill each other, then kill each other!”, adding to the drama. The participants made through it to the end with no injuries and one broken weapon. The silence of the audience suggested that this was not what they were used to seeing. I knew both guys and that was how they trained.
mickey[/QUOTE]
I was told a story about one of my seniors. He was learning 3 section staff against spear. My teacher was his partner for the form while teaching him at the same time.
The senior student got part way through the routine, and finally asked not to continue because he was concerned about getting seriously injured.
Greetings -N-,
That was too funny. What you shared showed how much times has changed. I remember how sadistic and hardened people used to be in the USA. When I was in college, I gave a presentation on the level of neglect found in mental institutions. I made reference to how a body had been found in an apartment and that th body had stiffened to the point where they had to break the body to put it in the body bag. I was expecting major laughs and giggles. All I got was a loud chorus of “ULLLLL”
Barehand contacts, when properly done, really works toward strengthening the body in a way that weights do not.
mickey
a proper 2 man form
I like very much…
Greetings -N-
I would call what you posted a precursor to the more common 2 man forms we see, often called line drills: the difference is that there is so much more conveyed in each line, to call them drills would be insulting.
I really enjoy the squatting legwork. It gives me that impression that either it was in preparation for the wearing of battle armor or that it is supposed to be practiced with a weighted vest (or the armor itself) so that the practitioner would be combat fit for the real thing. Can you imagine just 10 years of training like that? Legendary strength, Brother!
mickey
[QUOTE=bawang;1280263]a proper 2 man form[/QUOTE]
Nice weapon drills.
I’ve had students wear mma type gloves for practicing simultaneous hand attacks in the disarm motions.
Body of the weapon does an expulsion to disarm and attacks the hands on the way in. Point of the weapon attacks the opponent’s face/body.
Our daggers vs. spear and our broadsword vs. spear both have some nice moves where the person grapples the spear, gets inside his range, and cuts the guy’s fingers on the way in to cutting the body.
[QUOTE=mickey;1280250]I remember seeing a demo that featured a weapons contact done with intent. After the first section, the Sifu noticed that they weren’t going light for the demo and said, “If you want to kill each other, then kill each other!”, adding to the drama.[/QUOTE]
Reminds me of one time after learning my first two person form.
My teacher looked at us and said, “Like mad dogs fighting.” He didn’t mean it in a good way, and he turned around and walked away with a disgusted look on his face.
We were fast and aggressive, but tense and with no skill. Somehow we thought we were doing good.
[QUOTE=mickey;1280264]I would call what you posted a precursor to the more common 2 man forms we see, often called line drills: the difference is that there is so much more conveyed in each line, to call them drills would be insulting.[/QUOTE]
Oops, I did call them drills. No insult intended. Definately a lot of skills there.
I have no problem with drills. If our teacher taught us a form, he had us drill the short sequences from the form until we could use them. That was the point of having the form. Similar to what Sanjuro_ronin said.
From Praying Mantis 14 Roads, how many can actually do even just the kick and footwork correctly in a fight?
[QUOTE=mickey;1280264]Greetings -N-
I would call what you posted a precursor to the more common 2 man forms we see, often called line drills: the difference is that there is so much more conveyed in each line, to call them drills would be insulting.
[/QUOTE]
this is not a “precursor”. this is what a real 2 man form looks like.
[QUOTE=bawang;1280290]this is not a “precursor”. this is what a real 2 man form looks like.[/QUOTE]
I notice you always show these style weapons forms when the talk turns to two man forms. Is there any traditional empty hand two man forms you consider the “realz”?
choreographed sets of movements that give an idea of the style and it’s workings.
It’s a bit much to put anything more onto it I think.
Co-ordination is instilled.
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1280292]I notice you always show these style weapons forms when the talk turns to two man forms. Is there any traditional empty hand two man forms you consider the “realz”?[/QUOTE]
no they were created for entertainment
[QUOTE=mickey;1280264]
I really enjoy the squatting legwork. It gives me that impression that either it was in preparation for the wearing of battle armor or that it is supposed to be practiced with a weighted vest (or the armor itself) so that the practitioner would be combat fit for the real thing. Can you imagine just 10 years of training like that? Legendary strength, Brother!
mickey[/QUOTE]
To stand or to squat depends on the position of the spearman in the formation, or the action of the formation itself.
The same issue arises in boxing/kickboxing. I once visited a gym that insisted beginners learn sequences of mitt combos that went up to 20 counts. These are great for stamina but not much else.
Two person forms as presented in CMA (unless its the sort of quality drill work that bawang presented) are a waste of time. If you have a partner around, you can do partner drills, short sequences of counters, sparring, etc.
In boxing they have a similar drill. Jab- catch is but one. There are probably hundreds of variations. Working attacking and countering, etc. All to train you to respond ideally without thought. Same as I suspect 2 man drills on other arts . We did 1 and 3 step in TKD. In Kempo it was all really 2 man drills . Only free flowed during sparring.
Some things I was exposed to were likely to never going to happen but it was all fun and made you think about possibilities.
[QUOTE=pazman;1280325] Two person forms as presented in CMA (unless its the sort of quality drill work that bawang presented) are a waste of time. If you have a partner around, you can do partner drills, short sequences of counters, sparring, etc.[/QUOTE]
Yep, I agree. And I do not mind posting it again. Two Man Form is unnecessary. We should train sparring skill with life partner using 2 to 3 moves combo. These are moves we select moves from solo hand set. But not doing a whole routine with 100 moves in it.
Regards,
KC
Hong Kong
Seems someone on youtube decided to respond to the video. lol
These aren’t spearmen, they are pikemen.
these fellas were used to keep cavalry from getting at the archers mostly. 