““Secrets” on the other hand, are not always Sifu’s to give you. Only in finding them yourself will you truly appreciate the value and learn the lesson.”
Nice post,some figure out the puzzel,some need help,some don’t get help,but when the puzzel becomes a part of you its up to you
to solve it as the horse finds its direction.
The key seems to be finding the right direction once the puzzel is placed.
“Oh god, I sound like a fortune cookie! Help!”
Yes it’s true, we are talking a bout two different things, but in some sense they are intrinsically connected by the context to martial arts study.
A good teacher and possessing a good attitude and eagerness to learn are the keys to the car so to speak. Over time, you learn to drive the car that is you and your Kung fu improves inversely proportitionate to the amount of times you get to drive the car that is your kung fu lessons applied and as well, the subtleties of the car and it’s quirks are exposed to you by the one who is letting you drive the car, or your sifu. After all, in the beginning of all training in all fields, the analogical “car”, belongs to the teacher.
The teacher will reveal thyhings to you about the car. where the lights are, where the hazard lights are, where the windshield wipers are and so on until you are familiar with the car. After a time you can’t wait to drive again.
eventually you will be able to drive alone, and you will be able to figure out a thing or two about the car that wasn’t included in your driving lessons.
This is a very thin analogy, but to me, learning is learning and it either takes place or it doesn’t.
Styles of Kung Fu have developed over time and changed to fit the understanding of a current master, however, you would recognize that car anywhere! 
Hence all the different things about let’s say, Shaolin Kung Fu, and yet with the eye of the driver :D, you recognize the brand of the car immediatley.
peace
Hey hey
Do cars change to fit the driver 
Cars and siu lum. what next
Secrets
Of course there are secrets! Some knowledge cannot be attained by figuring it your yourself(Well unless your a genious and can live 300 years or so). Only way to learn it, is to have it taught to ya. Well the cool stuff I would think, buut thats just me reading too much kungfu comics soO yeap 
anyone ever read jademan comics?(buddha’s palm, Blood Sword, Oriental heroes?)
^_o
There is always information that is restricted to trusted senior students. This can often be called ‘secret’. One must earn the right to learn the higher levels of a style. A Sifu is not going to give away all his knowledge to just anyone who walks in off the street.
So, the public face of the style seems different due to the fact that what is taught is not everything. The trusted students display a greater understanding due to the instructor imparting more of his/her knowledge on them.
All makes sense, doesn’t it?
Not so much secrets…but
Here in the UK the most widely spread, and most controversal CMA style is Lau Gar Kuen.
Now many people seem to think that it is all kick boxing & fitness. Which in many cases is true.
But in reality there is a far more traditional system of Lau Gar Kuen being taught by Master Yau & a few of his most senior students.
He chooses however to keep this closer to himself, rather than let anybody share in this training, and subsequently many outsiders believe as Sharky once said on this forum:
“Lau Gar is just kick boxing with a bit of horse stance thrown in”.
Now Master Yau knows about all these things being said about his inherited style, yet he chooses not to reveal all his “secrets” (higher level training) to the general public.
Instead he is a business man who gives the general public what they want, and he gets what he wants.
Enough money to live comfortably, and teach his small circle of personal students the full system.
Most westerners do not have the time or inclination to study for the length of time required to fully grasp the complete style, so in effect a simplified format of imparting some knowledge to the impatient westerner is better in his eyes than no knowledge at all.
From the many students that start training in a style such as Lau Gar Kuen, a few will reach a reasonable skill level. From these fewer still will gain an insight into the real kung fu that Master Yau has, and from these a handful will be chosen to receive the full transmissions of the style.
So…The style does not really have secrets, it is just that a student has to earn the right to be shown more than just basic technique.
The best example of this, and the easiest to understand is when you see students performing the various forms. We are taught by Master Yau to show lower students the forms in a particular way, and get them to train that method.
However many movements and particularly the intent in the techniques is taught very differently at a higher level.
Now this is also true of most CMAs styles, Lau Gar Kuen is no different, except in that the westernised format has been successful beyond all expectations, and know people think that it is the be-all & end-all of the style.
So in a nut shell…
I do not really believe there are secrets, only skills and knowledge that are held back until the student has shown he/she deserves the right to the knowledge.
regards
Colin…
guohuen: “Secrets=Generating different Jings. Try to figure these out without any instruction.”
But surely the point is that it is not a secret, only that you require skilled instruction.
Then again secret, I suppose means to withhold the information from another. It is only secret if you don’t know it!
Your example is good though, because there are many many people out there teaching CMA, but relatively few of them really know how to teach correct power development.
I’ve met students from other instructors within my own style that practice even things like basics very differently from the way I was taught.
So when these students take students of their own, they will have a completely different interpretation of the form.
This is the biggest concern I think. I know it is mentioned elsewhere on a thread about lineage, that after a couple of generations a style can develop/degenerate into something barely recognisable as the original.
Anyway I’ve gone off subject abit, but these students will often feel that the style they study does not contain many techniques that it actually does, or that there are many secrets that they cannot obtain, which infact is not strictly true.
regards
Colin…
Good post on Lau Gar Kuen/ Yau Sifu, Colin. Not really thought about it like that before.
Mark S
"Now many people seem to think that it is all kick boxing & fitness. Which in many cases is true.
But in reality there is a far more traditional system of Lau Gar Kuen being taught by Master Yau & a few of his most senior students. "
Yes Lau Gar is a traditional southern system and if kick boxing is what is being taught, then the school should be called kick boxing and not Lau Gar. That way the controversy can be resolved - instantly.
“He chooses however to keep this closer to himself, rather than let anybody share in this training, and subsequently many outsiders believe”
Well if the instructor misrepresents his style in public, how else would the public believe otherwise. After all being a Lau Gar instructor shouldn’t preclude him from opeing kick boxing gyms.
“Now Master Yau knows about all these things being said about his inherited style, yet he chooses not to reveal all his “secrets” (higher level training) to the general public.”
Some people may say choosing not to reveal the secrets is selfish - that’s a personal choice. Nut not teaching the full works when the student has paid his money is stealing and irresponsible.
“Instead he is a business man who gives the general public what they want, and he gets what he wants. Enough money to live comfortably, and teach his small circle of personal students the full system.”
Nothin wrong with giving what the public wants but misrepresenting himself in public would only damage his reputation in the long run.
“Most westerners do not have the time or inclination to study for the length of time required to fully grasp the complete style, so in effect a simplified format of imparting some knowledge to the impatient westerner is better in his eyes than no knowledge at all.”
Most westerners??? have you done a survey of all westerners vs all non-westerners to make this statement. what is a westerner anyway. If ytou haven’t done the research that proves your point and claim that wesrterners can only take in a simplified format is down right racism. How do you like that!
“From the many students that start training in a style such as Lau Gar Kuen, a few will reach a reasonable skill level. From these fewer still will gain an insight into the real kung fu that Master Yau has, and from these a handful will be chosen to receive the full transmissions of the style.”
I surprised with his (sifu) attitude that any students would reach a competent level in the style. If he’s misrepresenting the public, how would the handful be confident they are receiving the traditional training? and at what point in one’s training cycle would the instructor say - what i’ve taught you is not the real thing, now i’ll teach you real kung fu. To me, this is a very silly way of running a shop.
"So in a nut shell…
I do not really believe there are secrets, only skills and knowledge that are held back until the student has shown he/she deserves the right to the knowledge. "
No no no. If your a student and the instructor has accpeted your fees, the teacher has the obligation to teach you. The same applies in kung fu.
yum cha
what an analogy, but what if i have a bike?
pak mei was only on a donkey too, i bet you didnt know that??
why are they closed
I think closed door schools are just embaressed with the sort of stuff that they teach.
Master Yau , does not misrepresent his style in public.
In fact any one over here will actually see that he does not advertise Lau Gar at all!
The only time Lau Gar is seen in the martial arts magazines, is when some of the competition fighers have won a tournament.
Unfortunately this means that this is the public face of the style.
So in many ways Lau Gar’s success, is also it’s own worst enemy.
We do not see Lau Gar being plastered over the mags, with wild claims, or picture strips of the forms.
When once asked by a student why he had never published a book or videos of Lau Gar, he said that:
Which is just what some of us are now doing.
regards
Colin…
Getting back to the original thread it is true as most of you already mentioned the differences in inner/outer student or disciple it all depends on one person the Sifu of the school. Also the difference of “showing vs. teaching” I find it true with most Sifus. Initially when you enter a kwoon you are just like in job setting on trial or probation period. The Sifu will see your worth, potential and your growth to acknowledge your status as customer or disciple(outer student or inner disciple). Most of the so called secrets are in the foundations of your styles in my opinion. You as a practitioner develop it or not.
It is true and awful when you put blood , sweat , and tears to something to realize that it is different then the Si-Hings or the Inner disciples. But also remember the old saying “the style does not make you. You make the style”. It is at the end your enhancement or destruction of that style which will also make the difference in the future of that style
My two cents.
mono68,
like a job, the boss treats you better if you threaten to leave. with the sifus - out comes the secrets.
I’ve been a closed door disciple myself, but I’m not now.
I will say that being a disciple implies a higher level of commitment and devotion than is expected of a typical student.
When I was training in a closed-door situation, I was exposed to some breath control stuff that I’d never teach to a beginning student. This is not because the student isn’t worthy, but because doing those maneuvers without the proper physical structure already in place would’ve been very injurious despite best intent.
Those who scoff at closed door training will never know what lies behind that door.
asd
Closed door
Hmmm. Check out
chongskungfu.com
Bolt
Why?
Breath and you will die
HuangKaiVun
I’m happy that you’ve wisened up to the fraud perpertuated by closed door kung fu. It takes longer for some people but you’ve finally realized.
For your sifu to say that breathing is a dangerous exercise is an insult to common intellegence of baboons. It’s shocking to think what some sifus feel they can get away with.
Closed door usually means shaddy. Wii the real sifu shaddy please stand up?
Spoken like a true novice, Ego.
Unfortunately, higher level breath control exercises are something you’ll never be exposed due to your obstinance.
Leggo your Ego. You’ll actually LEARN SOMETHING.