CLF Noi Lim Sau

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

I think Ou Ji brought this up in another thread but I’m curious too.

What is CLF Noi Lim Sau? I’ve also seen the terms Loi Lim Sau, Nei Lim Sau and Oi Lim Sau?

What do these mean? Could someone translate and also give the Mandarin translation?

The first term is pretty easy to translate Noi/Oi is inside/outside. Which I assume s Nei/Wai in Mandarin.

As a student of Chen Taiji I’m pretty familiar with so called “internal” martial arts and I’m curious as to why Chan Family guards this as some super secret aspect of CLF?

Basically, my understanding is that “inside” martial arts have different body mechanic requirements.

In Taiji the body mechanic requirements are as follows:

  1. Fang Song (relaxed)
  2. Peng Jin (inflated)
  3. Chan Si Jin (spiral motion)
  4. Synchronicity (one part moves, all parts move)

I can see that in an art like CLF that the “internal” body mechnanic fits WITHIN the external body mechanic, almost like a way to “power” it. However the internal body mechanic can be used on its own without ever resorting to external. Its use requires that you be much closer to your opponent than you would using the external aspect. This change in strategy is reflected in using a different “aspect” of the movement ie the one that fits inside.

To use an analogy…imagine that you are holding a rope that has a heavy weight attached to it. When you are doing internal it is like spinning the weight around the middle of the rope where you are holding it. All parts move at different speeds but in a synchronous manner. As the weight comes around on its circular path, you send it out on a tangential path. Now the weight is moving and the middle of the rope stays still. This is “external.” All parts are not moving together. The tension in the rope has collapsed and you must use extra energy to pull the weight back into its orbit around your hand.

2

I suspect that the ‘internal’ is more along the lines of ‘closed door’ or discipleship. Certain chosen students get the real deal while the rest get superficial stuff.

lkfdmc referenced this in his thread on his teacher CTS.

BTW, apparently if you don’t know this you’re an outside student. Did I guess correcty?

3

No I don’t think that’s it. Although, apparently you aren’t shown the “Taiji-like” aspect unless you are “inner door” disciple. This is reflected in the Taai Gik/Taiji and Mo Gik/Wuji CLF forms that the Chan Family teaches. Apparently these have a martial component. I have a video of Chen Yong Fa teaching jointlocking in a seminar. That applications are almost identical to some things that I’ve learned in Chen Taiji. Apparently, these higher level forms are very similar to other internal arts, most notably Taiji.

BTW, apparently if you don’t know this you’re an outside student. Did I guess correcty?

Not sure what you mean by that.

4

Not directed at you Fu-Pow, just throwing it out there.

The way it was discussed gave me the impression it was somewhat secret. Like only an insider would know what they’re talking about. As you can see nobody has come forward with any type of explanation.

But you may be correct. Or it could be a combination of the two. Either way I’m still interested in hearing about it. I never have nor will ever be an ‘inside’ or ‘indoor’ student so I have to rely on others to learn these things.

5

Noi Lim Sau

http://chineselanguage.org/cgi-bin/view.php?dbase=ccdict&query=5185&mode=internal&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=jyutping&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=radical,index,mandarin,english

http://chineselanguage.org/cgi-bin/view.php?dbase=ccdict&query=7C3E&mode=internal&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=jyutping&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=radical,index,mandarin,english

http://chineselanguage.org/cgi-bin/view.php?dbase=ccdict&query=624B&mode=internal&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=jyutping&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=radical,index,mandarin,english

Ngoi Lim Sau

http://chineselanguage.org/cgi-bin/view.php?dbase=ccdict&query=5916&mode=internal&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=jyutping&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=radical,index,mandarin,english

http://chineselanguage.org/cgi-bin/view.php?dbase=ccdict&query=7C3E&mode=internal&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=jyutping&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=radical,index,mandarin,english

http://chineselanguage.org/cgi-bin/view.php?dbase=ccdict&query=624B&mode=internal&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=jyutping&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=radical,index,mandarin,english

6

Cool, thanks. Inside/Outside Curtain Hand. And it isn’t found in Hung Sing sets. Is it a type of marker indicating the source of a set?

Guess I’ll have to go back to the original video that spawned the first occurance of this term and see if I can pick it out.

Here’s the video

7

Noi Lim Sau is a policy/contents/teaching mechanism passed down by Chan Heung to prevent the dishonest and the disloyal from learning the finer details.

It is built-in to make sure the art will survive. There is more to CLF than you can see on videos or read in books!

Frank, you can’t even get the names of the technical terms right, yet every one of these terms are written down and explained clearly and passed down to us in black and white writing.

Check out the choyleefut.com.cn and you can see some of the terms written in the kuen po. Now, if Jeong Yim had co-founded or co-created CLF, he should have all this information and passed down to you or your sifu/sigung. Where is it?

You have no idea how high is the sky and how deep is the ocean…

8

Hsk should realise [SIZE=4]his highly coveted blah blah elephant can probably be confined to a cage…[/SIZE] :smiley:
If I’m not mistaken:
I’ve asked him about noi nim sou in his lineage before…he says he doesn’t know then he says chan and jeong developed separately clf so have things unique to separate “branch”…but how can you co-found someone else’s style by learning it and set up a “branch”…

…then he says something like “we’ve got all those things you say we haven’t got”…then he says something like " I realise we have ‘that technique’ in applications, but not in forms…"

He has been asked whether it is “a technique” or how you move…now lets see whether he’ll come up with something…or whether he’ll quote you somehow…

…or whether he’ll keep silent…which says something if not a lot…

9

extrajoseph
Thanks for the explanation. Didn’t mean to derail a possible setup of HSK but some here are more interested in information than ranting and raving.

I’m not hardcore CLF but do plan on expanding a bit on the little I know right now.

10

Oi Leem & Loi Leem,

With our school, the technique is very difficult, because of its feel and reaction to the opponent… Our Buddha Palm form has it in there, but partner training is the best to develop it… It seems to have an internalness to it, but afterall, the terms we use confuse us a bit I believe…

It may have been a way to control the bridge since it is very sticky like… In the sense as to stick but not grab and commit to a lock.. but to control and draw the opponent in for a strike, etc…

Also, my sifu uses this term to describe someones kung fu also… When watching someone he will say the person is stiff or very good, and use this to describe the persons movement… When a CLF player is showing a form they should be using pwer from the inside, even the arms and hands will begin twisting into their techniques… The sow choy will gain more power inches away from the target…

Also it is intersting to watch CLF peeps recovery, how fast can they recover in their form, we should always be recovering quickly, as well as keeping the arms somewhat loose in case of a lock or grab… To be tight if someone grabs you may only aid them …

So yes CLF should be internal to what many claim internal… But we definitely start external and slowy refine our technique to include a more internal or how I like to say
“Unitary” way of moving…

So, that is how we use these terms…

Joe

11

Hi Joe,

You seem to know a bit about Noi Lim Sau.

Like the Hung Mun secret society, we have a way of finding out whether someone really knows just by asking them to hold a normal fist (and a few other little obvious signs).

Can you tell us how you would hold a normal fist the Noi Lim Sau way? Please describe the actions step by steps (there are 5 steps) and what to look out for and the sensations you have in your body.

No, it is not a test, you either knows or you don’t.

Yes, it is about unity of the body with the fist.

Care to give it a try?

EJ

12

If I told you I’d have to kill you.

13

Hello EJ…

Thanks for posting on this topic, as I always enjoy to hear your views…

Noi Leem Sao, as the technique…

As taught to me, the inside circle hand is a great way to redirect a punch for example… right stance to right stance, the opponent punches, without stopping or interuppting him, the arm shoots out sticking the outter forearm to his inner forearm, the hand overlaps with aid from the fingers, pulling the arm in, which is where his punch is going anyway… moving the hand to the outside so we can either strike quickly with the same hand, kick or continue to do what is necassary…

Noi Leem Sao, as internal/ uniterary…

When I show form or spar/fight, do bags, etc… People have noticed my fists are not the same as theirs… My fists are never clenched… I know my sifu taught me to have a somehwhat relaxed fist, similar to Tai Chi, but I hurt my wrist (minor) a few times when practicing Ngan Gong training when delivering a Pek Choy which uses the outter bone of the forearm to strike with… But it taught me alot… The impact causes my wrist to hurt…

When I train any swing strike especially I always keep the hand relaxed and actually EJ, I prefer open hand … I notice Chen Yong Fa does that alot in the videos I have seen…

So I never learned a step by step process of holding a fist, my sifus have always been part teacher part go figure it out types…

But I do know that when CLF is performed correctly (My POV)…:slight_smile: The 1st thing I look at is intention… Connection of the persons mind/will… The face can be a dead giveaway sometimes… Are they focused?? Then of course the timing of the body… Is the power coming from the stance/hips? Are they able to transfer power throughout the body without interuption??? (Tightness in the shoulders can block power from the body to hands)

Also correct alignment of the waist, shoulders, and arm especially on swing strikes… All to often an injury will occur because of bad execution of a swing punch…

I also have noticed way to many CLF people never get the Sow Choy right… They swing it with such tight shoulders or without good intention… Or even worse very sloppy… Recently a CLF master pulled the shoulder right out of the socket at a demo!!! So, it is so important to have the mechanics down before training the power/speed aspect… The sow choy should be like a whip chain, loose, fast & hit hard… The sow choy can have a twist of the arm with the weight sinking a bit more and the waist twisting a bit more… and of course you can use the breath too another aspect of generating more power…

I noticed many sensations and continue to listen to my body… One obvious sensation was the tingling in my hands from the blood rushing there when my shoulders were no longer tight and preventing me from using my body for power… I noticed my timing and recovery greatly improved as well…

To me, I still am amazed of how the CLF building blocks were designed… The stances and how they help generate and catch power we execute… The interdependancy of the 2 hands in the many circular combose we have… How so many techniques were designed to be effiecient and find as many places we can generate power without losing speed… Amazing to me… That is why I do enjoy form practice…

Using the breath is another part of this, making our sounds from the dan tien not the throat… I look for more sources of power each time I am training… So please add some, would love to have some new ideas…

So I am not sure if I answered your questions… If I am off, I definitely would love to hear a different perspective, especially one I can understand…

EJ, Please PM me if you wish to talk about this in private… I know this is something important to you…

For me I feel CLF is not mine to keep… I feel lucky to have come this far and lucky to have met and been with the people I know…

Also EJ, stick around… Let us pick your brain, I do enjoy your discussions and would love to hear more… I don’t know who you are, but still I can listen…

Joe

14

BTW,

GM Poon Sing has a student who I enjoy watching… his name is Chiu Man On, forgot the spelling…

Anyways, he has higher stances, but is very very fast… He must be in his 50’s now and I recently saw him, awesome… Different then my style, but we are of the same family…

They call him rubberband man I hear in Hong Kong…

Frank, was he also a performer in Singapore???

Joe

15

I like how Poon Sing moves, very loose and very fluid. I hope I can move like him when I’m that old. Apparently, when he visited our school (i missed it **** it) he was hitting the heavy bag in the back room with Chaap Chuis. From what I heard he was making the bag buckle and shake with very little tension in his hands. The students watching him couldn’t comprehend how he was doing it.

Anyhow…

I have a video of Chen Yong Fa doing 2 man joint locking and “sticky hands” exercises at one of his China trip seminars. No big deal, it looks almost identical to things learned in Chen Taji but somehow it fits with the Choy Lay Fut stuff. Pretty cool, but you could pick this stuff up elsewhere like Taiji, Xing Yi, Ba Gua, Liu He Ba Fa. In fact, I’m a little suspicious of this stuff because of its resemblance to Taiji. I wonder when and where this Qi Gong and Kei Lun Sticky Hands were integrated into the curriculum. Supposedly from the beginning but I have my reservations.

Chen Taiji used to have a long fist set. Apparently, it was a derivation of the Chen Family’s Pao Chui (cannon fist) that predates the “internal” stuff. Eventually it was abandoned in favor of training the internal aspect of Taiji.

So it could be that Choy Lay Fut used to have an internal aspect that was forgotten, abandoned or never transmitted, in favor of the external aspect. However, I remain a bit skeptical until I have a chance to train some of it. Which may never happen.

16

joe K,

on the dvd i got GM Poon Sing was a performer. however some of the camera shots were shotty, but from square one, i have not seen any master to date who demonstrated such power in his hands. he is old, right? i would definetely say for sure, he is one master i would not want to mess with on the street. im sure he could kill even at his age.

the techniques he was using was a little hard to define, but his movement was soft and lightning fast, his arm movements were soft, but the power was in his hands only. im talking about knock out blows if he were to hit you.

unlike all us youngsters doing the hoi jong fast most of don’t use the power he does. as his hands go out he has the bang right at the end of his strikes. to me, the man is great.

thanks, i’ll make a copy of it for you joe k. if you want.

17

Poon Sing…

I am going to Hong Kong this December to celebrate his 80th birthday… Yes the man is pretty awesome… he also walks up and down 7 flights of stairs at his apt in Hong kong, no elevator… He also talked to me alot about having chi in the hands, and how important it is to develop since power or jing changes as you age…

Also as you have noticed in his speed, while remaining powerfull…

Frank, my sifu has that video… I don’t remember it much… Honestly, I enjoyed the Lacey branch, they had some good players, but honestly… I wasn’t impressed…

From what I heard, the ceremonies took to long and people were upset and were peforming until 2am… :open_mouth:

Even my sifu has done much better…

But I wish Lee Koon Hung was still with us…

I never have met such a great martist like him… Master Chow Keung is the closest…

But I wonder what he would have looked like in his older years…

Joe

18

ExtraJoseph…

have been thinking about the unitary/ noi leem sao more since this post…

I am always trying to help my students understand the importance of the

  1. Stance 2. Hips 3. Shoulders 4. Arms 5. Hands

Is this what you mean? the 5 steps to proper execution…
I always explain that improper execution and stifness is like a waterhose that is clogged with dirt and such and when the water is turned on… It cant come out full force…

anyways…

Take Care…

Joe

Fu Pow…

We have these theories in our family… they either need to be pointed out to you, or you need to really listen to your sifu more and figure it out…

Using all the Tai Chi terms and trying to figure it out in your head to me is the wrong way, you need to feel it and you will know if you are on the right track…

But I think you are on the right track… And remember… its your turn to visit me…

:slight_smile:

Joe

19

I hear where you are coming from. However, I feel that the Taiji way of explaining things is more precise. Choy Lay Fut we try to talk about these things but it seems we don’t (or maybe I don’t) have the adequate vocabulary to discuss it. If these terms exists in our family, as you say then, I have never been exposed to it. My Sifu is very practical and doesn’t really like to get into theoretical discussions about chi and energy, etc. Mostly if you ask something kind of theoretical the most you get is a grunt. But as you say, it is a “feeling”, a sensation, and when you have it right you just “know.” That much I understand.

Hope we can visit again soon.

Ciao

20

You’re very right; Sifu is extremely practical. Do you think his English might also play a role?