Hi Hendrik,
Got Master Ku on tape.
Will convert this to digital format and post some clips of him in action.
Peace brother.
You’re right. On many occasions those descriptions fit to many styles. Even if the styles actually look different. Nevertheless sometimes you may spot something interesting in them. 
As for Weituoliuhe, I also looked at Wan Laisheng’s “Wushu huizong” and it says that his Liuhe is of Weituo men. There’s a whole chapter on it, as you probably know.
These are clips of two Liuhe forms from Lai Wansheng’s Fujian successors line:
http://www.hc360.com/webad/1.mov
http://www.hc360.com/webad/2.mov
I think they even call it Liuheziranmen. Looks quite similar to what Eric Ling posted. Perhaps it’s something closely related.
Hi,
Thanks for the links have not seen Natural Boxing for a while now.
Honestly, I think LiuHe Weito is as Chang Quan as they come. Typical Northern features, like I said earlier, postures, rhythm, intent blah blah blah.
The LiuHe is really very generic, as pointed out by Robert. Numerous styles, across the spectrum, use this for their philosophies.
Like Bau Gua for instance, I cannot recall the number of Bau Gau empty-hands, stick, spear, knife forms Ive encountered.
I think Weito Men has its place for historians because the origin is so obscure maybe?
I know I am crazy about a Northern form called Mei Hua Jie Quan or Plum Blossom Fast Fists for the same reason. Who invented this form? What styles practice this?
As a kid, I was given a book on this form. Never really paid close attention because the entire book is written in archaic Mandarin which is not my thing.
Now this form is really captivating because interspersed in this seemingly Northern form, I find many Southern Fukien White Crane techniques; the single knuckle punch, the spreading wing hands and even a beak hand posture that is almost certainly White Crane.
Which White Crane boxer designed this Northern form or which Northern Master did this White Crane form???
Maybe I should think about taking up Mad Monk boxing hahaha..
Regards.
“Personally, all styles of Kung Fu as long as it has solid traditional background, they will be both internal and external (yin and yang as one) at the same time. The arguement about which is internal and which is not is divisive and counter productive. It is a marketing plot that get out of control. We should not perpetuate that as serious martial artists.”
Hi Robert,
Ditto.
And there I was wondering why all my teachers taught me the “wrong” thing; that kung fu is both external and internal and to have one you must have the other. Errrrh, if I am not wrong, even the Japanese are saying the same thing.
So it’s a marketing spin…hmmmm……
In the words of Kismet; you da man.
Regards.
Just for historical clarification, Wan Laisheng’s Liuhequan is the derivative of Huizu Liuhequan as per the following lineage tree.
- Potou Huizu Liuhequan (PoTou, Hebei Prov.) - Shi Jinke …
- Cangzhou Liuheuquan (Cangzhou, Hebei Prov.) - Li Guangming
- Cangzhou Liuheuquan (Cangzhou, Hebei Prov.) - Li Fenggang
- Beijing Liuhequan (Beijing City) - Liu Dekuan (1st Change - major - Consolidate)
- Beijing Liuhequan (Beijing City) - Zhao xinzhou
- Ziranmen Liuhequan (Beijing/Fujian) - Wan Laisheng (Wan Changqing) - (2nd Change - minor - 'Ziran’ise it)
Hi Eric and All,
Thank you, my friend for the kind words. I would like to further address this before my thoughts got lost on me again [I am quite short term memory challenged these days. 
]. Hope you don’t mind.
I don’t think the teachers meant to “taught wrong”. As human we have limitations when it comes to the reality of space-time, we can only do or learn so much at a time. So prioritizing is inevitable. It’s a matter of perspective; hence, the famous line “We can only take you to the doorway and you have to make the decision to enter or not.” The best any teacher can do is to present to us the entry way to the secret garden that he once took and also those he found on the way to get to the various “sections” of the garden. There are times we would be able to see the water feature, the rest stops or whatever. Hopefull someday, we can behold and enjoy the full view of the garden at once. Chinese culture dictates that we as youngsters don’t question until we are of age. So we would think that everything we were told are truth and facts. Until one day we as the pupil are ready and the true master came in whatever form that may be and we get IT.
For years, I have been taught or conditioned to do Qigong meditations (an integral component of Kung Fu) with Dan Tian being the most important. I met a mentor recently who does Islamic meditation as well as a number of counter parts. He explained why he felt the Dan Tian is not where we should focus and it makes sense (with his demonstration of his meditation “skill”) Now this contradicts greatly will all the disciplines that I know. So what am I to do? Should I just leave whatever that I was doing and follow, this path that’s presented to me or should I just keep doing what I was doing and disregard the “new” info? Well, I found the third option, which includes looking deeper into what I was taught from the beginning. I search deeper in knowledge and wisdom; and found the path that I feel most comfortable with based on the old and have the new as the new found strength that allows me to forge further ahead (in actuality going backward).
The thing is both of them are valid and both of them are heading towards the same destination. But the path that I took out of the two would be very different. The old path (the kung fu path) would lead me to Wisdom that would seem rigid and cold. The new path would lead me to Compassion that would seem filled with humanity perhaps involved healing. So my heart said Wisdom it is. It doesn’t mean that my mentor’s path is wrong. It is just that my inclining and the environment is not the same as his. But I intented to trim my path so that one day Compassion will be just as integral component as Wisdom is in my path.
All in all on meeting my mentor, I learn that I should not be afraid of nor forget to change and constantly challenge my previous understanding and perspective. The source of that strength is in the meditation techniques which he showed me.
Warm regards
Robert
PS It would seem though, Eric, you are on the same path as mine.
HI Eric,
Excellent!
I will wait for you posting his clip.
Peace
Hi Robert and all,
Thanks for the last message; soul-searching in many ways.
Right, the teacher (knowledge) would appear when the student is ready. Express differently by different folks but the idea is identical.
IMHO, a lot of discrepancies witnessed today are not the result of “interpretation” but more of “ignorance”.
Our paths will converge at some point I am sure. At this time, I am still very bogged down with understanding and presenting what I have learned and it’s no walk in the park.
Okay a pic here from the “Plum Blossom Fast Fist” mentioned in my earlier message.
I tell you this form is one of my ghosts…..
Regards.
Oh yes, Hendrik, now that we are family I want to know this; how many styles of Kung Fu do you do really?
The truth now…hahaha and I don’t want rocket science type answer from you okay:p 
Eric,
which is the oldest version of sam jien kuen you are aware of? is there any fiitage that can be seen on youtube? I have seen five ancestors version, several white crane versions, of course the okinawan versions. I believe you had mentioned taizhu?
It’s funny, I look at the Uechi and Goju versions and I don’t see any one being closest to Jook Lum, but parts of each appear in the forms. Of course, trying to find the oldest, and thinking it will closest resemble Jook Lum is ridiculous, as Jook Lum has changed from Sifu to Sifu-(“Gwok Si, Gwok Faht”) and linking each to the short bridges in my Hung Kuen is not going to be direct but a linking, and connecting of the dots, and an unravelling of a chinese knot, but such is my journey.
(I always liked puzzles as a kid)
[QUOTE=mantis108;698599]
For years, I have been taught or conditioned to do Qigong meditations (an integral component of Kung Fu) with Dan Tian being the most important.
I met a mentor recently who does Islamic meditation as well as a number of counter parts.
He explained why he felt the Dan Tian is not where we should focus and it makes sense (with his demonstration of his meditation “skill”) Now this contradicts greatly will all the disciplines that I know.
So what am I to do?
Should I just leave whatever that I was doing and follow, this path that’s presented to me or should I just keep doing what I was doing and disregard the “new” info?
Well, I found the third option, which includes looking deeper into what I was taught from the beginning. I search deeper in knowledge and wisdom; and found the path that I feel most comfortable with based on the old and have the new as the new found strength that allows me to forge further ahead (in actuality going backward).
:)[/QUOTE]
Robert,
could you please share more on the dan tien issues? what is the perspective of the Islamic meditation and counter parts. what does you mentor attain in his meditation?
Insteresting stuffs.
TIA
which is the oldest version of sam jien kuen you are aware of? is there any fiitage that can be seen on youtube? I have seen five ancestors version, several white crane versions, of course the okinawan versions. I believe you had mentioned taizhu?
Hi Ten,
Which is the oldest? Like I said before, if I consider historical chronology, I would say Taizhu.
Is this a Taizhu invention; no I think the root stretches all the way back into Shaolin Lohan boxing philosophy. I know I am not alone in this opinion. I interact with many CMA scholars and this view is actually shared.
Variety of Sanchins that are commonly talked about:-
- Yong Chun White Crane You can find this in Martin Watts site.
- Shaking Crane Their site carries pictures of this version.
- Feeding Crane Sifu Liu Chang Is tape features 2 forms and one of them is Sanchin.
Wuzhu (GM Kan Teck Guans line) does 3 separate Sanchin forms:-
- 7 Steps Sanchin
- Heaven, Earth and Man Sanchin I will be posting a short excerpt.
- Character 10 Sanchin This form was posted by me earlier.
Wuzhu from other lines like GM Chua Geok Beng and GM Chee Kim Tong also do their own versions of Sanchins.
There is one version that I saw in West Malaysia many years ago that is really fascinating. This is from, yet, another Wuzhu line and this version is called White Crane Sanchin.
Exciting for me because it bears very strong resemblance to one version that I do in Fuzhou Crane.
TaiZhu does 3 sets of Sanchins also known respectively as Heaven, Earth and Man. I will post a short clip of the beginning movements of these.
Now if you look at Fuzhou Cranes; Ancestral and Whooping Crane, you will again find assorted versions.
One in particular should be the focus of karate researchers; the Tiger Crane Sanchin done in old Whooping Crane.
Almost mirror image.
Like I mentioned earlier, I am in the midst of organizing all my materials, prints and videos to go on-line. This should be ready in the next couple of weeks I hope and there I will present as much info as possible regarding this subject matter.
Okay 1 short clip and the mock-up of the on-line library site that I am presently working on.
Clip : Me teaching the beginning sequences of TaiZhu Sanchin.
Pic : My soon-to-be launched online MA library. This is a mock-up skin of the entry page.
Regards.
Facinating-yours looks extremely similar to the opening of sam bo gin-but with closed hands, the sup ji saam jien looks like lung ying/bak mei.
the deeper you get, the more exciting it becomes.
I can’t express how grateful I am that you are putting this info out there. I know I am not alone in this respect.
Hi everybody,
Got 2 short excerpts here:-
-
Wuzhu Tien Ti Ren Zhan or Heaven Earth Man Sanchiem. Like this because it sort of reminds me of my MingHe Sanjin. Here you see 3 Angles or triangular stance as opposed to the hourglass stance normally seen in other Sanchiems. The hand sequences also bring my 5 elements concept to mind.
-
Hakka Tiger Sam Bo Jin. This is really an intriguing form as far as I am concerned. Got it from GM Liu Kao Chye here in Sarawak Typical Hakka expressions in delivery but strangely the form also evokes impressions of another Southern Fukien/Fuzhou style; Lion Boxing.
Ten, the Sanchiem trail is, in reality, a very long and meandering one.
Besides those that we spoke about so far, records exist to suggest that many other Fukien/Fuzhou styles also integrate Sanchiems in their training.
There is one style that you normally dont hear much about and thats Fong Yang or Phoenix Sun. This was taught in Singapore and Malaysia and I think it was also exported to the UK some years back.
Fong Yang, according to its Late GM Tan Siew Cheng, is also known as Beggars Art. Itinerant folks (not Hakka) who gathered skills every place they visited.
Fong Yang is another Sanchiem-centered style.
Then we also got Ngo Mei Pai. Ngo Mei is the nun who escaped the burning in Southern Fukien that you generally read about.
This style is really into iron shirt Sanchiem.
Both these 2 styles had very strong following in Singapore when I was growing up there.
One of the things I hope to attain in my website is to feature them by visiting and interviewing descendents before they disappear into further oblivion.
With any luck (and a lot of diplomacy I suppose) Ill get them to do some of their forms and techniques.
Regards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xp9Yk89m7ns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbcFu0qn8qY
ps. if the good weather holds (this place is smothered by haze these last few days), I will shoot my Ancestral Crane’s SanZhan for you…
Hi Eric and All,
First and foremost, I would like to thank you for sharing these treasures with us all. The amount of material you have is beyond impressive.
I have to say that your Taizu San Zhan is most remarkable. You know sometimes you’d have a “click” the light bulb is on movement. This is one of those when viewing your Taizu San Zhan. I often wonder about the logic of Wing Chun’s Sui lim Tou. Why of all things, it is the most fundamental building blocks to the system in particular the Yee Gee Kum Yeung Ma. BTW, does this San Zhan has 7 steps - 3 forward, 3 backward and one forward once more?
As for the Hakka Tiger, I have mentioned my thoughts to you in previous emails. I can see it’s relation to my particular version of Jik Bo.
BTW, I don’t want to be bother but then I really couldn’t open those files except for the Hakka Tiger that you sent as an attachment. So I can’t comment on them. I am so looking forward for them.
Anyways, I really really appreciate the generous sharing. I wish we could meet in person since so much information can be share much rapidly that way. That are so much for me to learn.
Warm regards
Robert
Hi Robert and all,
Thank you for your kind words.
Wish I had more time to include more but……..
Guess my concentration in on the website that I am working on.
Anyhow, just want to say that “interpretation” is totally fine in my book.
“Interpretation” based on “ignorance” creates a lot of “accidence” – to quote one of my mentors.
You are really sharp with your observations.
Have you heard of a Wing Chun teacher called Randy Williams? Heard someplace that he was one time, the personal bodyguard of Steven Seagal.
Randy wrote a series of books on Wing Chun (very well done) and he was in Singapore about ten years back; started a Wing Chun class there.
This was in a facility known as “Singapore Martial Arts Instructors Association” where my Tai Chor Sifu Teo Choon Teck also had a regular class.
Know for a fact that Randy and Sifu Teo had many exchanges; you know comparing Wing Chun and Tai Chor. And to answer your question; yes, 7 steps in all the Tai Zhu San Chiems…
I will resend those “Babulien” files to you.
Want you to see the original version before mainland mutated them into a dance.
Take care my friend.
Regards.
Lalalala….. got a appointment to meet a Hakka Praying Mantis Boxer today. Getting my handy little digicam ready……lalalala
Hi everyone,
Continuing the saga of Sanchiems…..
Got my student to do the first portion of my Ancestral Crane’s Sanzhan. The introductory form in Fuzhou Zhong He Quan.
Comparatively “harder” than my Whooping Crane’s Sanjin, this Sanzhan, like I mentioned earlier, looks awfully close to the Wuzhu “White Crane Sanchin” I saw all those years ago in W. Malaysia,
All my students do this form first before proceeding further into the arts.
Some Taiwanese friends also commented that this version is comparable to many Sanzhans they do in Taiwan…hmmmmm….
I am excited about the second clip.
The gentleman in the clip is Edmund Wong from Sibu, a town to the north of Kuching where I am at.
His style is “Southern Shaolin Hakka Praying Mantis”. According to Edmund, this was taught to him by his dad.
Wong senior learned this style from a monk who left China and resettled in Sarawak.
I spent a bit of time “touching hand” with Edmund after the shoot. True enough, this young practitioner is very good with his “Mo Kiu” hands.
Well you know what they say; “You could tell by just one look (touch hand)”…….
Regards.
Hi everybody,
Lazy Sunday afternoon, thought I post one more short excerpt.
Babulien or 8 Linked Steps done by Whooping Crane.
What you see is probably the oldest version of this form which is still practiced by the Singapore MingHe group.
This form is also known as the 2nd Sanzhan by senior Whooping Crane folks and if you look at the form closely, it does follow similar attributes.
Babulien is not unique to Whooping Crane. I know for a fact that Resting Crane, a certain line of Flying Crane, Fuzhou Ancestral Crane and some other Fukien styles also do forms with the same name.
So Robert, if I view White Crane through numerical lenses, I would have a model that looks like this:-
3 Zhans (battles) or in some styles 3 Xin or 3 Stars referring to stepping pattern.
4 Men or 4 gates which is how most White Crane break down fighting domains.
5 Hsing or elements.
6 He or 6 combinations . The 3 internal and 3 external elements.
7 Xin or 7 stars. The 7 body weapons.
8 bu or 8 steps. The 8 ways to link all the above.
Well, like I said, its Sunday.time to lay back and break a Carlsberg..
Regards.
Good evening folks,
Another White Crane clip…
Just in case you guys don’t visit websites in Chinese, here’s a clip taken off Taiwan Feeding Crane Sifu Liu Chang I’s website.
Enjoy.
Regards.
Hi Eric and All,
[QUOTE=Eric Ling;699851]Hi everybody,
Lazy Sunday afternoon, thought I post one more short excerpt.
“Babulien” or “8 Linked Steps” done by Whooping Crane.[/quote]
Does the Babulien meant to teach Cun Jing Jie Li (inch power section strength)? I am wondering what’s the relation of it, if any, to BaFen in some crane line?
What you see is probably the “oldest” version of this form which is still practiced by the Singapore MingHe group.
This form is also known as the “2nd Sanzhan” by senior Whooping Crane folks and if you look at the form closely, it does follow similar attributes.
“Babulien” is not unique to Whooping Crane. I know for a fact that “Resting Crane”, a certain line of “Flying Crane”, Fuzhou Ancestral Crane and some other Fukien styles also do forms with the same name.
Thanks for the info. It’s getting more and more interesting.
So Robert, if I view White Crane through numerical lenses, I would have a model that looks like this:-
• 3 Zhans (battles) or in some styles 3 Xin or 3 Stars referring to stepping pattern.
• 4 Men or 4 gates which is how most White Crane break down fighting domains.
• 5 Hsing or elements.
• 6 He or 6 combinations . The 3 internal and 3 external elements.
• 7 Xin or 7 stars. The 7 body weapons.
• 8 bu or 8 steps. The 8 ways to link all the above.
Very nicely stated. It gives a clear progression of the system IMHO too. Interesting enough, in the northern Eagle, there is a form called Babu Lianhuan. It’s also about using 8 steps/ways to learn/drill fighting with the form’s techniques.
Warm regards
Robert